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Old 02-07-2013, 05:07 PM   #21
mdc
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I haven't read enough about Shawn lane to be 100% of this, but didn't he slow down and tidy things up AFTER he played everything at super high tempos?
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Old 02-07-2013, 05:13 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Freepower
^ yeah, because it's not like almost everyone who plays really well follows the basic principles of relaxation and economy of motion... oh wait they do.



But then again I doubt a lot of older guitarists we revere today followed any strict pattern of playing slowly and upping the speed etc... keeping things super tidy. They were kids and had only one goal, play guitar. Obviously that led to some bad habits that they may have fixed or left them as their personal quirks. No?
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:54 PM   #23
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Playing with bad technique then "fixing it later" ..

All of my sad.

My sad is everywhere..
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:08 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by vayne92
Playing with bad technique then "fixing it later" ..

All of my sad.

My sad is everywhere..


Dammit vayne, clear up the sad, it's making a mess
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:23 PM   #25
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Andy you have the worst posts. lol
play sloppy and don't forget to tell him to anchor, because you know it's better.
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Old 02-07-2013, 08:51 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by vayne92
Are you trying to say that if he can pick faster with his elbow / arm (which all beginners can basically) then he should practice that? If so then i can bet 99% of people including myself will strongly strongly disagree with the idea of practicing bad technique.
I don't even know what picking with the arm is to be honest :|

Picking from the wrist is the way it should always be done.



Arm picking is the gypsy style way to pick in jazz. Malmsteen use his arm.

"the way it should be done"- Way? if you can pick faster in a different method?
I have played with my wrist for most of my life in the last couple of years changed it to my arm. suddenly I can play fats & with a better tone...
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:02 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by barbuzim1
Arm picking is the gypsy style way to pick in jazz. Malmsteen use his arm.


Have you actually watched these players? Sit down and actually study them for a while and you will clearly see you are wrong.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:12 PM   #28
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Have you actually watched these players? Sit down and actually study them for a while and you will clearly see you are wrong.



this is what I did for a lot of time & still do. Bireli Lagrene, Rosenberg trio, Django, Richie kotzen & Malmsteen. whatching photege, playing solos from ear, all that jazz.

Take a closer look at malmsteen's tremolo picking, the base of his motion comes from the arm (not elbow- turning the arm in & out- like the proper technique for Oud), you can't keep your wrist from moving, but the base is the Oud technique.

just to educate you: The Oud is the guitar & Lute ancestor. The right hand technique of the pick has been this way for hundred of years.

when you use the arm you put down more weight on the string (helps with down sweeps & down economy picking) which results in more vibration from the string with less strength. the problem with it: the excessive vibration resonate with other strings (especially on acoustic & hollow body guitar but also on solid body guitars), this is why "arm pickers" switch between arm & wrist- when you put down your wrist on the strings they do not resonate.

According to Dr. Nachum Perpekovitch physically the natural motion of the hand is turning the arm. you can see it on Parkinson patients- the "locking" of the arm is damaged & the hands just make the natural motion- turning in & out.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:54 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Andy Pollow
I dont know what TS means but really you should ignore all advice and do whatever you want. Sometimes when people start off slow they stay slow cuz fast is different than slow. Id rather play fast and sloppy than slow and tidy cuz its more fun. And then work on making it more accurate.

Ever since you started posting, I've wondered if you've found an unorthodox way of playing that works for you and you're just bad at giving advice or it you're actually an idiot. I'm beginning to think it's the latter, reading your posts in this thread.

If you suck and try to play fast, you'll just suck faster.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:35 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Geldin
Ever since you started posting, I've wondered if you've found an unorthodox way of playing that works for you and you're just bad at giving advice or it you're actually an idiot. I'm beginning to think it's the latter, reading your posts in this thread.

If you suck and try to play fast, you'll just suck faster.


Wow that was really rude. I bet you wouldnt talk like that to my face. I think its good that there are many varieties of opinions. Sometimes it seems like people repeat what they hear like parots and there is usually more than one way of doing things.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:16 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Andy Pollow
Wow that was really rude. I bet you wouldnt talk like that to my face.

I'm pretty sure I would. I don't like to hold back my opinions.

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Sometimes it seems like people repeat what they hear like parots and there is usually more than one way of doing things.

The advice you're giving isn't a viable alternative, especially not what you've said in this thread. You've advocated anchoring in the past, you're advocating needless tension in this thread, and you're also recommending that TS ignore good technique in favor of half-assing his sloppy way through something instead of actually learning how to play comfortably and accurately at high speed. Saying you're wrong isn't parroting an opinion; it's shooting down terrible ideas.
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Old 02-08-2013, 05:36 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geldin
I'm pretty sure I would. I don't like to hold back my opinions.


The advice you're giving isn't a viable alternative, especially not what you've said in this thread. You've advocated anchoring in the past, you're advocating needless tension in this thread, and you're also recommending that TS ignore good technique in favor of half-assing his sloppy way through something instead of actually learning how to play comfortably and accurately at high speed. Saying you're wrong isn't parroting an opinion; it's shooting down terrible ideas.



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Old 02-08-2013, 05:56 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaaZeus
But then again I doubt a lot of older guitarists we revere today followed any strict pattern of playing slowly and upping the speed etc... keeping things super tidy. They were kids and had only one goal, play guitar. Obviously that led to some bad habits that they may have fixed or left them as their personal quirks. No?


Depends who you revere - lots of famous jazz, rock and blues guitarists are self taught and have used various methods of getting things up to speed. Your favourite guitarists might well have just played a lot and got gradually faster. It's always worth researching this stuff.

However, the basic idea of "do it slow, do it right, the speed will come" has been established as the correct way of learning instruments for hundreds of years. Guitar, violin, piano...

So plenty of guitar players worked at things from slow to fast just assuming that's how everyone did it.

Regardless, if you read up on what really good guitar players say about building speed, they say either

Quote:
Start slow and accurate and slowly build up.


or

Quote:
Just keep playing and the speed will come in time.



Personally I'd say they're both right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mdc
I haven't read enough about Shawn lane to be 100% of this, but didn't he slow down and tidy things up AFTER he played everything at super high tempos?




That's the video most people think of. It's worth pointing out what Shawn Lane considers "kinda sloppy" is much cleaner than I can play.

Shawn says -

Quote:
What I suggest is to just fracture the process, get a little faster, a little faster, and then just totally break...


He breaks up "the process" with speed bursts, which is a totally established method. I don't really mention the speed bursts thing much because what people hear is (read the youtube comments for proof)

Quote:
Just practice fast and don't worry about slop!


Which is a totally different thing.

He also says the most effective practice for him is playing piano, which no-one points out in these threads.


Quote:
Originally Posted by barbuzim1
Arm picking is the gypsy style way to pick in jazz. Malmsteen use his arm.

"the way it should be done"- Way? if you can pick faster in a different method?
I have played with my wrist for most of my life in the last couple of years changed it to my arm. suddenly I can play fats & with a better tone...


People use the terms "wrist" and "arm" but mean totally different things.

The problem is "locking" the wrist or elbow and doing spastic motion picking, which a really bad idea. Picking can be done from the "arm" or "wrist" without doing this.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:10 AM   #34
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I learned over 20 years ago, and it was very much a case of the blind leading the blind amongst my circle of friends. Nobody bothered with lesssons, and any progress was automatically going to be linked with whatever it was you happened to be doing because cause and effect was your only frame of reference.

There was nobody who really knew what they were doing, and even books and guitar magazines weren't a brilliant help because a lot of stuff went over your head (although you'd never admit it), not to mention all that bollocks about modes that was rife in the 90's.

So yes, loads of people learned and naturally assumed what had worked for them was the "right" way to do it, because there was nobody to tell you otherwise and no way to know that doing things a different way would provide better results.

My learning process was probably a lot like what Andy's was, but you need to move with the times and be able to admit that there may be a better way - "it worked for me" is never a viable argument for doin things a certain way. Things have changed, this is the 21st century and we have more information than we could ever want or need available to us.

I can legitimately cite ignorance as an excuse for the mistakes I made when learning to play the guitar, nobody with internet access that luxury any more.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:16 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Pollow
Id rather play fast and sloppy than slow and tidy cuz its more fun.


So you play fast and sloppy... ?

There are thousand approaches to pretty much everything, that does not change the fact that some are way more effective than others.
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:03 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Pollow
Id rather play fast and sloppy than slow and tidy cuz its more fun.


It's not fun playing fast and sloppy because you sound like shit and you know it's nothing but shit. Being shit is not fun.
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:38 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by vayne92
It's not fun playing fast and sloppy because you sound like shit and you know it's nothing but shit. Being shit is not fun.


Bad experience ?
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:50 AM   #38
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?!?! lmao thats a funny thread. DUDE Ive been playin violin for a whole 8 months how come I cant keep up with Paganini's 5th caprice? I think natural is best first - just hold your pick really tight and whip the string as fast as you can. A stiff smooth pick is always easiest for speed. Then it just takes alot of work to actually move that around and play fast music up and down the strings. Lots of time and work.

Quote:
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I dont know what TS means but really you should ignore all advice and do whatever you want. Sometimes when people start off slow they stay slow cuz fast is different than slow. Id rather play fast and sloppy than slow and tidy cuz its more fun. And then work on making it more accurate.

Alrighty dude, you're either a fantastic troll, or you're simply a moron. Everything that I've ever read that you've posted is not only wrong, but stupid. If you're a troll, go elsewhere. People don't need to be confused. They come here for help, and you're not helping.

And FYI, TS means 'thread starter'.
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Junior's usually at least a little terse, but he knows his stuff. I've always read his posts in a grouchy grandfather voice, a grouchy grandfather with a huge stiffy for alternate picking.
Besides that, he's right this time. As usual.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:25 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by mdc
I haven't read enough about Shawn lane to be 100% of this, but didn't he slow down and tidy things up AFTER he played everything at super high tempos?


Thought I'd just give a quick tidy reply to this, although Freepower has already covered it.

Shawn Lane did that sometimes to try to remove mental blocks - In general I'm pretty certain he followed the classic routine of playing slow, working on technique and practicing a lot.

Speed bursts can be useful but they shouldn't be used as an excuse to not practice slowly (not saying you do this of course).

+1 to most of the posters here by the way.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:52 PM   #40
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Speed bursts can be useful but they shouldn't be used as an excuse to not practice slowly (not saying you do this of course).

This is literally everything that needs to be said about bursts in practice.
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