Macabre_Turtle

Not sure where to go from here. Every time I get in the mood to learn some theory I end up finding things that I either already know, or things that require you to already have knowledge that I lack, so I'm kind of stuck.

My knowledge right now pretty much consists of the following

• Chord Construction - Triads, 7ths, add9s/sus2s, add11s/sus4s
• Scale Constructions - Major, Minor, the modes (though not making modal music of course), harmonic minor, pentatonic, diminished, whole tone
• How to stop thinking in the above scales and just think about my choice of intervals instead
• I can usually figure out how to change keys fluidly, but it's guesswork.
• Basic harmonizing - Really just making sure different melodies stay a third/fourth/fifth/sixth/octave apart, and making sure my melodies match my chords

So where would the MT professionals suggest I go from here?

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cdgraves

structure and analysis.

Aks yourself:
How do "borrowed" (non-diatonic) harmonies fit into overall harmonic progression?
How do you tell a tonicization from a full modulation?
How is rhythm used to achieve a subjective effect with non-diatonic harmonies?
How does the voice leading change the subject effect of a cadence?
Appoggiatura or suspension?
How do approach the V7 differently in major vs minor keys?
How is a piece structured to make the cadences more dramatic?

Hail

ain't no checklist, you either got it or you don't

go back and figure out why you love music. the knowledge you have in the fundamentals will help you find your niche. you can keep learning and approaching it academically, but at the end of the day, if your ear and your emotional attachment to music aren't stimulated, you're never going to take that information to its true potential.

not that you're an amateur by any stretch, you know your stuff, but just by virtue of having to ask "what next?" it's a demonstration of how distracted you've got from the artistry in music. the craft is there to supplement the art - not the other way around.

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Macabre_Turtle

Thanks for the suggestions. Hopefully this gets me somewhere.



I assure you, I'm not having this problem. The problem is that I've been playing for seven years, and while my writing itself has improved greatly, I haven't actually learned any theory at all in the last four of them. I've been constantly writing for years, but now I'm at a point where it's not improving without help anymore so I need a few more tools.

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Hail

you don't get it

go out and learn some new music. if you think you need theory to write, you're having artistic problems. there isn't a "next step" of theory - knowing all that you've listed means jack shit, and most of that isn't even necessary to start creating music meaningfully and thoughtfully.

you're trapped in the same hole we struggle to pull guitarists out of when they think "hey what's a good scale i should learn"

take all those fundamentals and apply them to deconstructing music aurally. if there's anything more complex beyond them, learn them when you hit it, but focus on the basics and on actually appreciating music rather than turning it into homework

it's like those kids who think they'll get a job straight out of college, then when they're unemployed after 4 years they go into grad school just cause they have nothing better to do than rack up more debt.

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Macabre_Turtle

If there's anything about music theory that I don't know (which is actually most if it) then there is indeed a "next step." I'll take some advice from people that actually want to help, instead of accusing me of lacking artistic effort or vision just because I'm looking to learn, thanks.

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Hail

what do you think you're going to get from that knowledge? and even if you wanted to actually learn, wouldn't you take a course? get a book from the library? actually do something productive?

it's a cumulative effort, not "hey what's next on the list". you're obviously not taking it very seriously if you legitimately want to learn theory, and i don't see how you'd expect me (or anyone) to take you seriously in that regard

if you had a solid enough aural foundation, you'd be able to just learn new music and blend your prior knowledge with your appreciation of that music and could learn practically through that. academia is absolutely something every musician should approach - after they know why they're approaching it, and after their grasp of the fundamentals is solid enough to where they don't need to learn big words and "tips and tricks" to overcompensate their ability to let their musical intuition and artistic temperament speak for themselves.

i've said it once, i've said it a thousand times. i'm not here to break people down for my own enjoyment. at the end of the day, if i didn't give a shit about how people thought about music and approached it, i wouldn't post here nearly as much as i do.

if i'm not being constructive, you're being a lame duck. if you had enough of a grasp on those fundamentals and legitimately wanted to learn, there wouldn't be a thread here, because you'd be self-sufficient. that's why they're called fundamentals - they give you a springboard. if you're not going to use them to your advantage, you may as well go write an Fbb tuba ensemble

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Macabre_Turtle

Courses cost money I don't have. And get a book on what? That's what I'm here to ask, obviously.



No shit, it's a cumulative effort. That doesn't fix the problem that I don't know where to go from here.



Remember that time that I said I haven't actually learned any new theory in years, even though I've been writing constantly? And how can you in the same post say that musicians should absolutely learn new things and then insult me for wanting to learn new things?



If you were here to help you would be answering the question "So where would the MT professionals suggest I go from here?," instead of insulting me for wanting some help.



I wouldn't be asking for help learning if I legitimately wanted to learn? Yup. Makes perfect sense.

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Myshadow46_2

I do agree with Hail;

but look at the quote, surely that tells you what you should learn next. i.e. the knowledge you lack...

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food1010

The point is, writing music isn't "learning new things." It's putting into practice the things you already know.

Hail has a good point. You need to listen to, transcribe, learn, etc. more new music. That's singlehandedly the best way to broaden your vocabulary.

I'm assuming you've heard it too many times: Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive. You need to learn music first, then learn the theory to categorize what you already know.

Could you name a section of a song that you recently learned that you don't understand theoretically? If so, that's a good start.

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Macabre_Turtle

The knowledge I lack... which would be what, exactly? That's why I'm here.
The first response here suggested "borrowed harmonies," and now that I'm aware that this is something I lack, and I assume it to be something I have the foundations to understand given that the user suggested it after reading the list of things I already know, now I can look into it. That was a helpful suggestion. Telling me to write and listen to music like I've been doing for years, instead of learning some theory, was not useful.



I've been putting the things I already know into practice for years. Now I need to know some new things I can put into practice. I am a musician. What the hell is wrong with wanting to know more about music?

As for sections of songs I don't understand theoretically? Yes. I see them all the time. Analyzing these sections doesn't help me when I don't have the tools to understand them to begin with. If I had the tools I would obviously already understand them. That's why I'm here.

I'm glad I didn't ask you guys for help before understanding scale and chord construction, or I would've ended up being one of those guys that plays for years and years without bothering to learn the names of the notes on the neck because they think theory is useless. Sheesh.

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food1010

Ok, well show us some of them and we'll direct you in the right direction.

We're not trying to be difficult. It's just that there are so many different categories and sub-categories in theory. It's not like there are specific things that you need to know.

How is your voiceleading/counterpoint knowledge?

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Macabre_Turtle

That would be fantastic. I'll look for an example.

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food1010

Yeah I know it's not optimal to make a thread every time you come across something you don't understand, but it'll give us something to go off of.

Check my edit by the way.

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Hail

wait i just realized, your list says you know about chord construction and intervals, and that you want to learn to change keys

...what do you actually know about keys? like, if you know intervals/chord construction/consonance/dissonance and have an idea on how to establish or pivot the tonic, you literally need to know nothing more to analyze almost any modern music you're gonna run into, especially in stuff like prog metal (which is really straight-forward 99% of the time)

also, how often do you write music without looking up scales/keys? like, how do you lay out a harmonic context? i honestly don't see how you could learn and write music for years and be able to straight-facedly say "i don't know enough about music theory herp derp" unless you're full of shit or holding yourself back.

and to clarify above where you played defensive and failed to read, you should only approach an advanced academic understanding of music when your ear and instincts are honed enough to make use of the basics. like, really, music requires very little academic understanding provided you have a proper aural training (obviously outside of the refined realm of classical approaches that are based, as a whole, off of raw musical rationality, but that's probably not your goal as a prog-based electric guitarist)

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Macabre_Turtle

I know nothing about voice leading or counterpoint. Is this something you'd suggest looking into from where I'm at?



I know that the 'tonic' is the root of my key. I assume by 'pivot the tonic' you mean a key change, in which case, I don't know how those more knowledgable go about it, but changing keys is an experiment for me, guessing my way through which chords will help me make the transition.

When I write, I know what key I'm in, but I don't usually think about the scales. Just the intervals. For instance, if you look at the first song on my full album tab in my signature, it uses all 12 notes while I'm in the key of B minor. I really wasn't thinking about the scale, just which intervals would work. I know 'enough', but I can always learn more.

This last paragraph, along with previous comments, implies that I haven't made use of the basics yet, or that my ear isn't developed enough. Neither of these are the case, as I've been making use of what I consider 'the basics', and my ear has often been useful for coming up with things that I never would have thought would sound good if I just saw the riff/melody/chord progression written down and analyzed it without hearing it.

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D..W..

There's a lot of ways to switch keys fluidly, just try stuff and think about what you're doing (if you don't want it to be guesswork). Just figure out why it works (check out the notes in the chords etc. This helps make it really obvious, especially with stuff like parallel minors, 2ndary dominants, tritone substitution etc.)

You've got a good start with what you do know (as in that knowledge will help you understand a lot of more complicated things). Just try to find new stuff on here and elsewhere. The music theory FAQ helped me a lot, I just go looking through there and if I see something I dont know about (but from reading it, can understand. Some of it's just beyond my understanding as it builds on other concepts) and learn it. Also if there's a concept mentioned somewhere that you don't know about, look it up or ask about it. It's not a perfect method, but it works.

Hail

then this thread wouldn't exist

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Macabre_Turtle

Okay, an example of something I don't understand. Chromatically descending basslines. Such as...
Bar 88 of this tab, http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/p/p..._guitar_pro.htm
or Bar 5 of this tab, http://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/b/b..._guitar_pro.htm
Or the main chord progression of Hotel California.
Or the chromatically ascending bit of the Metalocalypse theme, Deththeme.

Why does this sound good? How do I make it sound good?

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