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Old 02-10-2013, 01:49 AM   #21
LeeAlacoque
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Originally Posted by AlanHB
And the answer to your frets question is that the resulting notes on the frets would fall in between the notes which make up western scales.


But would you be able to make music that sounds good with it?
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:03 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by LeeAlacoque
But would you be able to make music that sounds good with it?

'Sounds good' is highly subjective, but the short answer is yes. If you're skilled enough you can even make the sound of someone dropping a coin onto a coffee table 'sound good'.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:16 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by LeeAlacoque
But would you be able to make music that sounds good with it?
Define "good" for me. If you were to describe it as something that sounds relatively pleasing to the general population, then I would say probably not. Centuries of using 12 tone equal temperament has conditioned people to hear music as a specific set of intervals. Any intervals outside of that set may sound "weird" or "wrong" to most people.

Then again, feel free to try. If you can pull it off, more power to you.

Be aware that there are other possible tuning systems that have been used before, such as 53 tone equal temperament.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:36 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by LeeAlacoque
But would you be able to make music that sounds good with it?


http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2010/blue-notes/

http://www.amazon.com/Easley-Blackw...l/dp/B000009KIL

http://www.cityoftheasleep.com/music

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/grou...c/message/16277

Yes.

And just for fun, to the comment about making anything sound good:



Trust your ears and you can go anywhere.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:34 PM   #25
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Quite honestly, anyone who asks "Why do I need to learn theory?", or who doesn't see the point of it after learning the major scale, simply doesn't know enough to be able to form a valid opinion.

It's like how when I was in freshman Geometry and got annoyed at stuff like surface normals. Why the hell would I ever need to know which way a plane was facing? When am I ever going to use that in life?

Fast-forward twenty years and I'm a graphics programmer doing backface culling. Ohhhh, NOW I get it...

Just keep learning. It'll pay off eventually, even if all that happens is that you learn enough to know for sure that you won't need it. You have to know the rules in order to know when to break them.

At the very least, it'll keep you from looking like a derp when you jam with people who don't know the song you're trying to play and ask you how it goes. I was playing bass with a few friends once, and they wanted to do this song I hadn't learned, so I said, "What's the chord progression?", and the guy looked at me like a dog looks at a ceiling fan. I had to walk him through his guitar part note by note and look at where his fingers fell on the fretboard, because he didn't know what he was playing.

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Old 02-10-2013, 03:39 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by TheHydra
And just for fun, to the comment about making anything sound good:

Ionisation


Trust your ears and you can go anywhere.


I can't tell if you're being anti- or pro-Varese, so I've prepared an answer for both scenarios.

Anti- : Don't talk shit about Varese.

Pro- :
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by LeeAlacoque
So I've gotten to key signatures now. As far as I can tell this is just a way to simplify writing. I thought keys had something to do with what notes were in a piece of music?

I might want to make my own songs someday but I still don't see how this is going to help. By the way, I'm using the lessons on musictheory.net. Maybe they're just not in-depth enough or something?


The key is the note that a piece resolves to, and whether it's 'major' or 'minor' tells you specifically what chord it resolves to. Each key also contains a certain set of notes, which are important to remember, even though you're more than free to use the notes between them. If you can't see how this is going to help, then you haven't actually used the information in the lessons your reading. Don't just read the lessons and memorize them. Write something with them. musictheory.net is more than in depth enough for beginners.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:31 PM   #28
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In my experience theory has not helped me write anything, i've tried to incorporate it into my playing and it's useless. I'd much rather just run around on the neck and figure it out like that, i know what sounds good together and jumping around until you get it right for me works a whole hell of alot better. Never wrote anything good or unique trying to use theory. Maybe i never learned the right parts or didnt learn it the right way, but at this point i don't care, i see it like this, theory is like a manual for writing music, and the last time i checked no one used a manual to make anything unique or oringinal. I got tired of reading about all theory shit and trying to make it all make sense, when i could have used that time to play my insturment and improve my skills. Theory will do a good job improving your reading skills tho.

So my advice don't even waste your time studying it, when you could be using that time to practice your insturment and actually get better. work on techniques of playing rather than a theory of playing. So stupid...
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by OurRequiem
In my experience theory has not helped me write anything, i've tried to incorporate it into my playing and it's useless. I'd much rather just run around on the neck and figure it out like that, i know what sounds good together and jumping around until you get it right for me works a whole hell of alot better. Never wrote anything good or unique trying to use theory. Maybe i never learned the right parts or didnt learn it the right way, but at this point i don't care, i see it like this, theory is like a manual for writing music, and the last time i checked no one used a manual to make anything unique or oringinal. I got tired of reading about all theory shit and trying to make it all make sense, when i could have used that time to play my insturment and improve my skills. Theory will do a good job improving your reading skills tho.

So my advice don't even waste your time studying it, when you could be using that time to practice your insturment and actually get better. work on techniques of playing rather than a theory of playing. So stupid...


I have never facepalmed this hard in my life.

If it didn't help you, you didn't learn it. That's all there is to it.

By the way, the band in your avatar knows no music theory and utterly fails at making anything original. Coming from somebody that actually likes them.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:32 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Macabre_Turtle
I have never facepalmed this hard in my life.

If it didn't help you, you didn't learn it. That's all there is to it.

By the way, the band in your avatar knows no music theory and utterly fails at making anything original. Coming from somebody that actually likes them.


It's not surprising given his avatar.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the person I quoted...
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:34 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
It's not surprising given his avatar.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the person I quoted...


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Old 02-10-2013, 08:13 PM   #32
LeeAlacoque
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So I'm getting farther and still don't understand how this could help me write music. One lesson was an analysis of a piece of O Canada and all it did was name each chord. Nothing about why these chords were used or anything. It just seems like stuff you would need to know if you wanted to write sheet music
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by LeeAlacoque
So I'm getting farther and still don't understand how this could help me write music. One lesson was an analysis of a piece of O Canada and all it did was name each chord. Nothing about why these chords were used or anything. It just seems like stuff you would need to know if you wanted to write sheet music


By this point in the lessons, if my memory serves me correctly, you should a.) know every triad that fits diatonically in whatever key you want, and b.) be able to construct any triad you want by knowing which notes fit in them. If you can't do these things, and it's not helping you write music, then you haven't learned it right yet.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:22 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by LeeAlacoque
So I'm getting farther and still don't understand how this could help me write music. One lesson was an analysis of a piece of O Canada and all it did was name each chord. Nothing about why these chords were used or anything. It just seems like stuff you would need to know if you wanted to write sheet music


What kind of music do you admire the most and want to write like?
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:26 PM   #35
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I know somebody has said this already, but you won't fully understand the usefulness of theory until it's already benefiting you. Do you intend on writing music. Because I can tell you that my ability to write improved tremendously immediately upon just taking a bit of time to learn (AND USE!) the basics of theory, and I promise most users on here will tell you the same.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:29 PM   #36
LeeAlacoque
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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
What kind of music do you admire the most and want to write like?


Metal. I would probably end up making black metal type stuff
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:30 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by LeeAlacoque
So I'm getting farther and still don't understand how this could help me write music. One lesson was an analysis of a piece of O Canada and all it did was name each chord. Nothing about why these chords were used or anything. It just seems like stuff you would need to know if you wanted to write sheet music


i'm really getting annoyed by your attitude. clearly you don't see any value in learning theory.

so just shut up and do things your way, and don't reap the benefits. it's that simple.

do it or don't. don't disrespect our time and yours by bitching about how you don't see the benefits.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:37 PM   #38
LeeAlacoque
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
i'm really getting annoyed by your attitude. clearly you don't see any value in learning theory.

so just shut up and do things your way, and don't reap the benefits. it's that simple.

do it or don't. don't disrespect our time and yours by bitching about how you don't see the benefits.


Obviously I do see value in it if I'm attempting to learn some. Don't get all mad
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:14 PM   #39
Morphogenesis26
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Originally Posted by LeeAlacoque
Metal. I would probably end up making black metal type stuff


Have you ever wondered what makes the Black Metal bands you like sound good to you? If you take knowledge of intervals, harmony, rhythm, voiceleading, and etc. you can pinpoint what makes stuff you enjoy work faster and recreate it with ease. That's the point of theory and you won't understand how useful it is until you put it into practice.

So, to summarize; Go and analyze some Mayhem riffs or something and think about why it works.
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:32 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by LeeAlacoque
Also, something I've been wondering is, is there a science to music? Like why certain combinations of notes sound good to the human ear? And why is all music made with the same notes? What if I moved the frets on my guitar to 2/3 their normal lengths?


Yes, there is a science to why things sound good in music.
It's called Music Theory.
Certain bunches of notes sounding good can be explained in theory. As for all music being made with the same notes- You have 12 notes, and then you have the same note repeated an octave higher. So technically there are endless different notes (as none sound exactly the same), but we label them by what sounds the closest (albeit higher or lower). And if you use a chromatic tuner, you'll notice that one octave is equivalent to twice the frequency. (for example, open E on a bass is 42-i think- and open E on a guitar is 84-Again, i think. The numbers may not be exactly correct but the point is there, the octave is twice that of the octave before it). Also, we only have those twelve notes because of how tuning works. (This part gets more science then theory, we just take being in tune as a given factor when applying music theory) When you tune your guitar, you usually are tuning it with the reference point being A=440Hz. Therefore B,C,D and so on are in relation to that. I have heard of people with interesting reasons as to why 440Hz is bad and tune to 432Hz instead (you can adjust most chromatic tuners). But then try jamming with those guys- you'll sound like crap (i.e. out of tune) because you're tuned differently. Although his sounds good with his own guitar and to anyone else tuned to 432Hz, you can't make notes in between A and Bb sound good with notes that are directly at A, or Bb or whatever note you want. They will always sound off (ever played an out-of-tune guitar? You know what I mean). Why they sound off, I can't say, I just know that they do. (If that makes no sense, let me know, I'm not sure if it does or not.) In a sense it's just irreparably dissonant (to the point where it's just bad, not dissonant as in diminished chords, which can in fact sound good), which is why use half-steps and never quarter and eighth steps when talking about notes.
That's the theory portion of the answer.

The science behind your smaller frets thing would be actual science, but less in terms of why things sound good, and the physical science of making the right note come out of a string.
I'm I don't know for certain what would happen if you did that, although if you spoke to a good luthier he could probably tell exactly what it would do. I'm relatively sure, however, that you would need to put thinner strings on it and have a higher tuned instrument (like mandolins, ukuleles etc. Pretty small frets, pretty high notes). However, there a 1/2 and 3/4 size guitars out there, which I have never come up with a reasonable explanation for why they sound the same as a normal guitar (anyone know? I'm pretty curious about that lol). That's more of a physical thing then a sound thing.

It sounds like you might be going a bit too fast if you don't get it. Look for Josh Urban's series 'the crusades' for a decent beginner theory guide. It's here on UG, just give it a search. It starts at the beginning and I highly recommend reading each piece ALL THE WAY THROUGH, no matter how much you think you don't need to. He analyzes a few songs and does in fact explain why. And well, he's kinda funny too, which makes the 40 or so pages of reading enjoyable. (Try copying and pasting to your computer, printing and reading bit by bit if you don't want to read 40 pages off a screen). I would start there (read all 13 of them. By the end you get to some relatively complicated stuff, but it's good stuff to know, and he explains everything you need to understand that stuff).

Also, theory helps you more if you actually really get it. Musictheory.net has some good stuff but it never really helped me much, it just never seemed to go detailed enough.
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