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Old 02-12-2013, 04:28 AM   #81
AlanHB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
Just last night I was working with a singer I sometimes collaborate with, and we were trying to piece together a medley. It was trivially easy for me to find the good spots to make the connections between the songs from looking at the chord charts and with some knowledge of theory.

She's a great intuitive singer, but has no real theory knowledge. So she had a bunch of ideas, most of which didn't work once we actually played them.

It was a great example of how theory can help you. Certainly we could have gotten to the same place through trial-and-error, or somebody with a great ear might have been able to really hear the transitions without playing them.

But knowing theory really made the whole process go a lot faster and smoother.


Hey I don't mean to distract from the point of this thread (whatever it is) but this example has some issues.

Firstly if a singer who doesn't know how to play an instrument makes up a part, it becomes really hard for them to remember it once you try to start playing along.

Think about it - it's really hard to sing one tune while another is playing in the background. My money says that she forgot her songs the instant you started playing guitar.

Also you said the ideas "didn't work"....isn't that a bit anti-music/theory/whatever? I mean, everything works in theory, theory didn't make those lines - she did. I'm having a hard time thinking about a situation where it wouldn't work, maybe she sung some atonal stuff, which actually would prove that she's better at theory than all of us

Theory would not have helped her in this situation, she made melodies she liked, you tried to play along but couldn't find appropriate parts, meanwhile she's forgetting the parts and you're changing the guitar parts as her parts change, chasing eachother around in circles...

I only know this because I've been there, done that. It's an extremely frustrating experience.

What you do is get your singer to record her parts away from you. She can record with an iPhone/computer mic/whatever - pretty simple. She gives you the recorded parts and you make your guitar parts around those.

Ok you guys can get back to it now. Cheers.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:11 AM   #82
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This thread is now about the theory, history and philosophy of 20th/21st century classical music.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
nah they're still doing that shit. Goofy tape loops are like the 808 "kick drum" or breakbeat sample of modern classical music.

I don't even know what "goofy" tape loops mean. If you just mean pieces with an electronic component then yeah, that's one of the fastest growing areas of contemporary composition.

Either way, what I meant was that the idea of theory being passe is passe. People have started embracing, if not traditional harmony, traditional concepts of tonality. The idea of subverting old genres and forms with "irony" is passe. Ever since the postmodernists there's been a pretty strong move towards connecting with music of the past.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:48 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Firstly if a singer who doesn't know how to play an instrument makes up a part, it becomes really hard for them to remember it once you try to start playing along.

Think about it - it's really hard to sing one tune while another is playing in the background. My money says that she forgot her songs the instant you started playing guitar.


We weren't writing songs. We were trying to mesh to pre-existing songs that we both know. So this wasn't really relevant.

Quote:
Also you said the ideas "didn't work"....isn't that a bit anti-music/theory/whatever? I mean, everything works in theory, theory didn't make those lines - she did. I'm having a hard time thinking about a situation where it wouldn't work, maybe she sung some atonal stuff, which actually would prove that she's better at theory than all of us


We tries drawing the connections where she thought it might work, and it felt jarring and wrong - not a sound that made either of us happy. Whereas it was easy for me to quickly identify places that sounded smooth.

I think you're misunderstanding what we were doing/trying to do.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:11 PM   #84
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^ what were the songs?
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:15 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by mdc
^ what were the songs?

show


and

show
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:30 PM   #86
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^alol!

... and this song, See You Next Tuesday, is a very clever anagram for a word I've used during my angry moments on this forum recently!

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Old 02-12-2013, 03:50 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
We weren't writing songs. We were trying to mesh to pre-existing songs that we both know. So this wasn't really relevant.



We tries drawing the connections where she thought it might work, and it felt jarring and wrong - not a sound that made either of us happy. Whereas it was easy for me to quickly identify places that sounded smooth.


Gotcha, I missed the word "medley". But generally speaking I'd say that it would be inexperienc in writing medleys than music theory knowledge that lead to this result.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:12 PM   #88
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Maybe it would help if you learn the theory with the guitar in your hands. It would make learning theory more interactive and fun (instead of just sitting behind a PC/in class and drift far away).

I.e. when you learn about consonance and dissonance, you could try strumming that dissonance chord (progression). After doing this you could fumble around with it and ask yourself questions like: What would happen if I do this in this riff/solo? What if I play this after X chord. What if I play one of the chord in X chord and another in X2 chord? How would they sound if I play them differently?
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:25 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Gotcha, I missed the word "medley". But generally speaking I'd say that it would be inexperienc in writing medleys than music theory knowledge that lead to this result.


Putting together a medley with songs in different keys means you have to treat the transitions as modulations. That means identifying common tones and tonic/dominant relationships. The only way you could do this without theory is by guessing and checking, which is fine if you never intend to perform, but if you're preparing for a gig time matters quite a bit. Or you could transpose everything to one key, which is extraordinarily lazy.

When you've got music to work through, there is simply no reason to spend hours fucking around with "does this modulation work? how about this one?".

edit: censors really? Are we not big boys and girls?

Last edited by cdgraves : 02-12-2013 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:20 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
Putting together a medley with songs in different keys means you have to treat the transitions as modulations. That means identifying common tones and tonic/dominant relationships. The only way you could do this without theory is by guessing and checking, which is fine if you never intend to perform, but if you're preparing for a gig time matters quite a bit. Or you could transpose everything to one key, which is extraordinarily lazy.

When you've got music to work through, there is simply no reason to spend hours fucking around with "does this modulation work? how about this one?".

haha aw you're starting to sound like a reg
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:02 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
Perfect pitch isn't required for that, actually. Relative pitch works just fine.


That's true I suppose, since it'll sound the same (at least in feeling) in any key. Figuring out the exact note you had in mind would be perfect pitch though (Unless I have something wrong there. Perfect pitch being the ability to recognize notes by name, relative pitch being the ability to recognize intervals, etc?).
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:59 PM   #92
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haha aw you're starting to sound like a reg


I actually joined after looking specifically for a high-traffic forum to argue/discuss musical stuff. And to advertise myself when I get new recordings up. I have much experience arguing about music.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:05 PM   #93
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:09 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
I actually joined after looking specifically for a high-traffic forum to argue/discuss musical stuff. And to advertise myself when I get new recordings up. I have much experience arguing about music.


hahahahaha high traffic my ass
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:24 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Hail
hahahahaha high traffic my ass

Compared to most other music theory forums it's a bustling metropolis in here.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:16 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
Compared to most other music theory forums it's a bustling metropolis in here.


Every thread about scales is a car crash.

Every thread about modes is Hiroshima in 1944.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:03 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
Every thread about scales is a car crash.

Every thread about modes is Hiroshima in 1944.


it's a step up from forums where the most frequent post topic is "what guitar should I get?". I mean, at least crappy threads about modes are actually talking about music.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:04 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
Every thread about scales is a car crash.

Every thread about modes is Hiroshima in 1944.

You mean 1945?
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:42 PM   #99
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You mean 1945?


Shit, you're right.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:21 PM   #100
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Excuse me if I'm about to become one of those people who repeats things because they couldn't be bothered to read through the thread but I don't believe that music theory is a science, or that it is a universal explanation of what 'sounds good' and what doesn't. It's a descriptive discipline which abstracts from the common practice/s of composers. Learning it can be simply an aid to the appreciation and understanding of music, or it can feed in to improvement in the areas of performance/interpretation and, of course, composition.
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