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Old 02-10-2013, 01:35 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Horsedick.MPEG


That was my exact reaction.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:58 AM   #22
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in my opinion Ian likes being a dick because his dad ****ed his pet bunny
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:01 AM   #23
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records sound much better than CD's, but the bigger issue is the ridiculous amounts of compression on all modern recordings.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:08 AM   #24
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in my opinion Ian likes being a dick because his dad ****ed his pet bunny


Don't you mean fox?
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:10 AM   #25
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Don't you mean fox?



Iwas gonna say that but most people don't have foxes.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:01 AM   #26
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Right, deep breath...

Records should sound more as a true representation of the recorded sound. Note: I'm not saying sounds better, but truer, there is a difference.

However, real life doesn't work in ideals and theories, so let me begin:

Vinyl records have very limited physical capabilities to produce a true to life recording for several reasons. Audiophiles/hipsters will try to tell you the information on the record is what was played. This is incorrect. Cutting vinyl is a compromise. In order to get more onto a record, bass is de-emphasised and treble is emphasised. This is reversed in the phono stage through RIAA equalisation, but adding steps into a hifi system always allows for loss. What isn't rectified is the loss of dynamic range. If this equalisation didn't happen, your LPs would be about three feet wide, because the grooves need to be a lot wider. The benefit of this, asides from not taking up a shedload of space (which records do well enough as it is), is that the arm and stylus don't need to travel as far, prolonging their life. In addition, all frequencies under a certain crossover point are automatically mixed down to mono, as stereo bass frequencies are difficult for a stylus to track. So far, that's a pretty big case for records not being as perfect as some people would like to think. Secondly, the size of these cutting heads and styli is finite. They can only cut between certain frequencies. The reason records sound warmer is because of this. You do lose a fair bit of top end with records. When you pluck a note on a guitar, you don't hear one frequency. Tone is made up of the fundamental, harmonics and overtones. The ratio of these harmonics and overtones produces different overall tones. More higher pitched overtones produces a brighter sound. As records cannot produce these higher overtones, everything becomes warmer, or wooly depending on your viewpoint.

Then there's the setup of a turntable. There's a lot to get right- VTA, level surface, vibration damping, tracking weight, azimuth. And the noise floor. You lose a fair bit of fine detail that is in the record because of the high noise floor inherent in records.

CDs do not suffer from such issues. Audio information is on the disc as it is tracked, and the frequency range is guaranteed. Certain frequencies aren't mixed down to mono, so a truer soundstage can be produced. The noise floor is a lot lower, allowing your equipment to unearth more detail. Interestingly, CD information, whilst digital, is taken off the CD in an analogue way- lasers are analogue, electricity is analogue. Nyquist theorum shows that digital resolution is indistinguishable from analogue resolution to the human ear. As there are less steps in signal conversion, there is less signal loss. One issue is error correction however. As music is an instantaneous thing, we can't resend packets of data, because the moment is gone. CD players have inbuilt error correction, which makes a guess if the information received is outside what is expected. Very difficult algorithms, which I'm not going to pretend to understand. But this obviously decreases the case for CD being a truer representation of what was recorded, but that's down to the equipment- better CD transports will introduce less error correction, as info is being read correctly. In theory, well ripped computer files should perform even better than CDs. With records, if there's an error, it's often down to the record rather than the reading- on damaged records, if the info isn't there or is wrong, it doesn't get picked up and you don't get any sound.

CDs get a bad rap because of the early days, where they did sound cold and lifeless. But that's what happens with new formats, there are teething problems. Pick up Brothers in Arms, go to your local hifi dealer, and have him/her put it on the best system they have. Get blown away.

Personally, I feel that in real world terms, CDs can produce a truer representation of the original recorded sound. However, I use both formats, because there are some albums I prefer on CD, some I prefer on vinyl. Instead of looking for the truer sound, look for the sound that you feel sounds better to you. This is just a brief overview. I wrote even more, but my iPad switched off

Source: I work with hifi for a living. I deal with annoying as hell 'audiophiles' that are wrong every day.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:04 AM   #27
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Delirium I love you.

/thread.

That's all folks, pack up and go home.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:05 AM   #28
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I also like cd more
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:10 AM   #29
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Delirium won the thread, move on yall.

Its all what you prefer at the end of the day. Steppenwolf were made for vinyl, Rush were not. (I still own every vinyl of theirs though )
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:11 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by stratman_13
Delirium I love you.

/thread.

That's all folks, pack up and go home.


Just the other week I had a 'VINYL IS BETTER THAN EVERYTHING, HURRDURR' customer. So I demo'd him the CD path of my current system with the CD version of his favourite album.

He's now waiting on delivery of the same system.
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Old 02-10-2013, 04:17 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Deliriumbassist
However, I use both formats, because there are some albums I prefer on CD, some I prefer on vinyl. Instead of looking for the truer sound, look for the sound that you feel sounds better to you.


Exactly. Not sure why everyone has to get so goddamn militant about it.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:04 AM   #32
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Exactly. Not sure why everyone has to get so goddamn militant about it.


The simple mind can only deal in absolutes.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:08 AM   #33
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:12 AM   #34
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I've only listened to records a couple times when I was young, so I don't really remember much of it.

The two formats definitely sound different, but I think the question of which is "better" depends on what music you're listening to.

For example, if I was chilling out to some Sinatra, which was recorded at low volumes and with non-modern compression techniques, I'd probably prefer a record over a CD, because of the supposed warmth that is associated with vinyl and gramophones.

However, if I was listening to something like Periphery, which is loud, and super-compressed, and pika pika, I'd probably prefer a CD.

So yeah, different formats for different styles of music.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:57 AM   #35
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il help you out with a scrumptious btbam example

colours on record
intro sounds like hes right there. holy shit, tommy is in my bedroom, oh god his voice, holy shit sorry tommy i didnt mean to hit your face with that jetstrea...

colours on cd
fasho, yeah, i dig it, DD boobies, lickin them titties

colours on record
rawr rawr rawr growl growl night goggles in santas sleigh, rawr rawr, smoke weed erryday

colours on cd
jkdsfguehgfkjdsngohsfd;ognbjkfdnsg;shnfdohgsdh;fgd s

colours on record
hssssss crackle crackle hssssssss cracka nigga crackle

colours on cd
skip skip skip skip skip skip

yeah...my colours skips
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:53 AM   #36
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Now that the thread has been won I have another question which relates a bit.

Why the **** are my friends putting their releases on Cassette?
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:59 AM   #37
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Vinyl sounds miles better for a pretty simple reason.

Anything digitally recorded has a naturally limited sound spectrum. Anything analog recorded has an infinite one.

Original sound is analog by definition. A digital recording takes snapshots of the analog signal at a certain rate (for CDs it is 44,100 times per second) and measures each snapshot with a certain accuracy (for CDs it is 16-bit, which means the value must be one of 65,536 possible values).

This means that, by definition, a digital recording is not capturing the complete sound wave. It is approximating it with a series of steps. Some sounds that have very quick transitions, such as a drum beat, a pinched harmonic or a trumpet's tone, will be distorted because they change too quickly for the sample rate. ( A good analogy for the 'steps' is a JPEG- which is effectively the same in an image. That is why every time you open and close a JPEG, it degrades slightly)

In your home stereo the CD or DVD player takes this digital recording and converts it to an analog signal, which is fed to your amplifier. The amplifier then raises the voltage of the signal to a level powerful enough to drive your speaker.

A vinyl record has a groove carved into it that mirrors the original sound's waveform. This means that no information is lost. The output of a record player is analog. It can be fed directly to your amplifier with no conversion.

This means that the waveforms from a vinyl recording can be much more accurate, and that can be heard in the richness of the sound. But there is a downside, any specks of dust or damage to the disc can be heard as noise or static. During quiet spots in songs this noise may be heard over the music. Digital recordings don't degrade over time, and if the digital recording contains silence, then there will be no noise.

I have just bought the Fostex DAC Headphone amp, which converts MP3 to a kind of analog system. It's the best thing I have bought in years.

Last edited by jakey333 : 02-10-2013 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:02 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by yoman297
Why the **** are my friends putting their releases on Cassette?


I would assume they hold a misplaced belief that it somehow makes them "cool" and "scene"
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:10 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by yoman297
Now that the thread has been won I have another question which relates a bit.

Why the **** are my friends putting their releases on Cassette?

cassettes are rad, every album should be released on them
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:13 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Deliriumbassist
Right, deep breath...

Records should sound more as a true representation of the recorded sound. Note: I'm not saying sounds better, but truer, there is a difference.

However, real life doesn't work in ideals and theories, so let me begin:

Vinyl records have very limited physical capabilities to produce a true to life recording for several reasons. Audiophiles/hipsters will try to tell you the information on the record is what was played. This is incorrect. Cutting vinyl is a compromise. In order to get more onto a record, bass is de-emphasised and treble is emphasised. This is reversed in the phono stage through RIAA equalisation, but adding steps into a hifi system always allows for loss. What isn't rectified is the loss of dynamic range. If this equalisation didn't happen, your LPs would be about three feet wide, because the grooves need to be a lot wider. The benefit of this, asides from not taking up a shedload of space (which records do well enough as it is), is that the arm and stylus don't need to travel as far, prolonging their life. In addition, all frequencies under a certain crossover point are automatically mixed down to mono, as stereo bass frequencies are difficult for a stylus to track. So far, that's a pretty big case for records not being as perfect as some people would like to think. Secondly, the size of these cutting heads and styli is finite. They can only cut between certain frequencies. The reason records sound warmer is because of this. You do lose a fair bit of top end with records. When you pluck a note on a guitar, you don't hear one frequency. Tone is made up of the fundamental, harmonics and overtones. The ratio of these harmonics and overtones produces different overall tones. More higher pitched overtones produces a brighter sound. As records cannot produce these higher overtones, everything becomes warmer, or wooly depending on your viewpoint.

Then there's the setup of a turntable. There's a lot to get right- VTA, level surface, vibration damping, tracking weight, azimuth. And the noise floor. You lose a fair bit of fine detail that is in the record because of the high noise floor inherent in records.

CDs do not suffer from such issues. Audio information is on the disc as it is tracked, and the frequency range is guaranteed. Certain frequencies aren't mixed down to mono, so a truer soundstage can be produced. The noise floor is a lot lower, allowing your equipment to unearth more detail. Interestingly, CD information, whilst digital, is taken off the CD in an analogue way- lasers are analogue, electricity is analogue. Nyquist theorum shows that digital resolution is indistinguishable from analogue resolution to the human ear. As there are less steps in signal conversion, there is less signal loss. One issue is error correction however. As music is an instantaneous thing, we can't resend packets of data, because the moment is gone. CD players have inbuilt error correction, which makes a guess if the information received is outside what is expected. Very difficult algorithms, which I'm not going to pretend to understand. But this obviously decreases the case for CD being a truer representation of what was recorded, but that's down to the equipment- better CD transports will introduce less error correction, as info is being read correctly. In theory, well ripped computer files should perform even better than CDs. With records, if there's an error, it's often down to the record rather than the reading- on damaged records, if the info isn't there or is wrong, it doesn't get picked up and you don't get any sound.

CDs get a bad rap because of the early days, where they did sound cold and lifeless. But that's what happens with new formats, there are teething problems. Pick up Brothers in Arms, go to your local hifi dealer, and have him/her put it on the best system they have. Get blown away.

Personally, I feel that in real world terms, CDs can produce a truer representation of the original recorded sound. However, I use both formats, because there are some albums I prefer on CD, some I prefer on vinyl. Instead of looking for the truer sound, look for the sound that you feel sounds better to you. This is just a brief overview. I wrote even more, but my iPad switched off

Source: I work with hifi for a living. I deal with annoying as hell 'audiophiles' that are wrong every day.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eC6...be_gdata_player

what's your opinion on this frequency range experiment?


Additional question.. if I buy a modern day lp copy of say.. DSOTM, does that mean that it will be recorded from a digital source?
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