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Old 02-10-2013, 01:05 PM   #21
KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daanbread
I am afraid my good sir, that this isn't right. I used to think the same but after asking a physics teacher ive found out that the universe operates in a more probabilistic manner. This basically means that each event that happens, such as the movement of a gas, has a percentage change of either doing it or not doing it. These percentages can be very small but in the large scale of things it would create a very different universe. So yeah, things are quite random indeed.

)': but Einstein said God dunt play dice with the Universe )':

Electrons exist as a result of the collapse of the wavefunction, which is a probability, yeah, but isn't that probability based on events preceding and during it? The act of a particle popping into existence is as a result of its environment, an environment which is as a result of its preceding environment.

And surely the movement of a gas (in space) would be down to gravity and initial velocity, if in an atmosphere, the atmosphere density/wind/temp etc etc, everything is predictable till we arrive at the quantum level. But there was a time where the paths of the planets seemed chaotic, till newton came round with his big dick and sorted that shit out. Now we're at the stage where the quantum world looks chaotic as ****, but that's what chaos theory is all about int it.


Idk think of it this way, if the concept of numbers predate our ability to perceive them (which is a given) then do they also predate matter? If so it would mean that all of matter was engraved with a 'code of conduct', as such. The world is numbers. One planck length after the big bang all of matter (although acting in a completely different way to how it does now) would have followed this code, and extrapolating this 14b years into the future we arrive in the state that we're at now.

I'm with Einstein on this although chaos theory isn't finished yet. Without it we'd never have a G.U.T though and that sucks cheeseballs.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:06 PM   #22
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Everything is ruled by cause and effect. The things that we consider random are the events we haven't or are unable to predict.

EG: A roll of a dice.

Some people are able to predict by decoding the systems that rule a particular pattern.

EG: Counting cards.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
)': but Einstein said God dunt play dice with the Universe )':

Electrons exist as a result of the collapse of the wavefunction, which is a probability, yeah, but isn't that probability based on events preceding and during it? The act of a particle popping into existence is as a result of its environment, an environment which is as a result of its preceding environment.

And surely the movement of a gas (in space) would be down to gravity and initial velocity, if in an atmosphere, the atmosphere density/wind/temp etc etc, everything is predictable till we arrive at the quantum level. But there was a time where the paths of the planets seemed chaotic, till newton came round with his big dick and sorted that shit out. Now we're at the stage where the quantum world looks chaotic as ****, but that's what chaos theory is all about int it.


Idk think of it this way, if the concept of numbers predate our ability to perceive them (which is a given) then do they also predate matter? If so it would mean that all of matter was engraved with a 'code of conduct', as such. The world is numbers. One planck length after the big bang all of matter (although acting in a completely different way to how it does now) would have followed this code, and extrapolating this 14b years into the future we arrive in the state that we're at now.

I'm with Einstein on this although chaos theory isn't finished yet. Without it we'd never have a G.U.T though and that sucks cheeseballs.


Are you saying the weather is predictable?
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:13 PM   #24
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@Killswitch, you said it yourself. The universe has rules. The laws of chemistry, physics, and every other branch of science hold true always forever. It would be random if I threw a rock, and then all of a sudden the universe decides, "Nope, it's actually the thing farthest away that's going to have the strongest gravitational pull on an object, of you go to the sun, rock!"
@daanbread, I don't think that by casually asking a physics teacher about quantum mechanics you truly understand the uncertainty principle.
@frusciante.ve, great you've cleared up your vocabulary, but you're still not really making arguments for why free will isn't a thing. You're just saying it and waiting for it to blow my mind.
@all of you, this thread reads like stoners thinking they understand things because weed.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:22 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frusciante.ve
Im not good explaining my thoughts but Ill try to make it clear: everything is ruled by randomness, every single thought you have is a direct consequence of a previous event in your life, while you think you control what you do... you actually dont, its just your brain reacting to something.

You could say "oh yeah, well Ill touch my nose while I tap my foot... I decided to do that... its not randomness", but actually its a direct response from your brain to prove myself wrong and for previous events in your life... the first thing your brain comes up with is touching your nose while taping your feet.

You dont control anything in your life... its just your brain reacting to its enviroment, you just go with the flow.

Thanks

Look up Behaviorism if you're wondering if people's reactions are truly only a brain's reaction to the environment.

And also check out the Butterfly effect.

Wikipedia ftw
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by frusciante.ve
Im not good explaining my thoughts


You shouldn't be speaking then.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:31 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Cheesepuff
Look up Behaviorism if you're wondering if people's reactions are truly only a brain's reaction to the environment.

Then look up Chomsky's debunking of behaviorism. awww yeah.jpg
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
Are you saying the weather is predictable?

It is predictable, there are just far too many variables for us to be able to accurately make an estimate further than like a few days

tiny variables such as fluctuations in air density/temperature/wind speed/people walking/a leaf dropping/an ant dying each play a part in affecting the weather as everything is a part of this big system. If we were to know and be able to predict each variable, we could predict the weather towards infinity. It's just our error in calculation that gives the appearance of chaos.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:49 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
It is predictable, there are just far too many variables for us to be able to accurately make an estimate further than like a few days

tiny variables such as fluctuations in air density/temperature/wind speed/people walking/a leaf dropping/an ant dying each play a part in affecting the weather as everything is a part of this big system. If we were to know and be able to predict each variable, we could predict the weather towards infinity. It's just our error in calculation that gives the appearance of chaos.

But the sun's output is a chance variable. You can't predit that... like ever. As it influences our weather, surely the system will always be chaotic and unpredictable.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:50 PM   #30
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Amuses me when people try to make some distinction between them, their brain and .their body
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:51 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
Everything may be random, but yet it does comply to specific rules and it stays within certain boundaries.

This.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:53 PM   #32
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This.

Go fly a kite. I hate you even more when you agree with me.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:54 PM   #33
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Lol, ts. Lettin dem control yo mind, you gota fight it mang


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Did you know, you are your brain?
Nah, you're consciousness that is aware of thoughts produced by your brain.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:57 PM   #34
crazysam23_Atax
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Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
Go fly a kite. I hate you even more when you agree with me.

Well, fuck you then! I'm not flying a kite on your orders!

You probably wish me to freeze to death; since it's like 0C (32F) degrees out. Asshat!
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:57 PM   #35
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Randomness in itself is not actually real. For true random to occur, there'd have to be no defined limititation in the set. There would need to be an infinite amount of choices, which can never exist.

Everything has a percent chance of occuring, but that doesn't make it random.


edit: I looked up on it a bit more, and apparently some things in quantum mechanics are believed to be genuinely random. As well as the decay of some elements.

Even still, in day-to-day life, nothing is random.
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:58 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
Nah, you're consciousness that is aware of thoughts produced by your brain.


No. You don't have a brain, you are a brain; you don't have a body, you are a body
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:07 PM   #37
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What's with the existential and philosophical threads on UG all of a sudden?
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:07 PM   #38
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No. You don't have a brain, you are a brain; you don't have a body, you are a body
I'm not a brain. I'm not sure what the **** I am, "conscious energy" is the best way I can describe it to myself, but I'm definitely not a brain. The brain is just an organ that does shit. Even if I wasn't here aware of what it was doing it could still do its job.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:08 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by guitarhero_764


Nah, you're consciousness that is aware of thoughts produced by your brain.

That consciousness is also a product of your brain. If you don't believe me, see where a lobotomy gets you.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:08 PM   #40
KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
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Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
But the sun's output is a chance variable. You can't predit that... like ever. As it influences our weather, surely the system will always be chaotic and unpredictable.


The whole universe is a variable, that's what I meant by the big system, it doesn't mean everything is chaotic it means everything has the appearance of chaos, but if we were to look closer we'd see underling order

But for all intents and purposes, we'd probably never be able to predict the weather further than a few days, unless we were to make some huuuuge advances in technology


Hypothetically, if we could make a computer that sent two waves a plancktime apart that traveled all 14b lightyears of the universe and back within, idk, a second, and could tell us the positions of every particle in the universe, if we were aware of the rules governing them, we could use the lapse in distance of the particles in between the two waves to conclude velocity and direction, and from this we could calculate a prediction for what the universe will be like X into the future

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