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Old 02-10-2013, 02:08 PM   #41
Todd Hart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
I'm not a brain. I'm not sure what the **** I am, "conscious energy" is the best way I can describe it to myself, but I'm definitely not a brain. The brain is just an organ that does shit. Even if I wasn't here aware of what it was doing it could still do its job.


Yeah... no.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:09 PM   #42
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^ whatevs

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Originally Posted by cornmancer
That consciousness is also a product of your brain. If you don't believe me, see where a lobotomy gets you.
...have you had a lobotomy before? How do you know where it gets you?
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:11 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
^ whatevs

Actually, it's not "whatevs". Todd is right.

You seem to be lacking a basic understanding of biology.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:12 PM   #44
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:13 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Actually, it's not "whatevs". Todd is right.

You seem to be lacking a basic understanding of biology.
I'm not sure why biology is at all relevant here.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:15 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
^ whatevs

...have you had a lobotomy before? How do you know where it gets you?

Okay if you're going to suggest to me that despite removing all your higher brain functioning, you would still be conscious, we have nowhere else to go with this conversation, unless you want to talk about spirituality and religion and the like.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:16 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by cornmancer
Okay if you're going to suggest to me that despite removing all your higher brain functioning, you would still be conscious, we have nowhere else to go with this conversation, unless you want to talk about spirituality and religion and the like.
Just don't act like you know what would happen, is all I'm saying.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:20 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
I'm not sure why biology is at all relevant here.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
Just don't act like you know what would happen, is all I'm saying.

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Old 02-10-2013, 02:22 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
I'm not sure why biology is at all relevant here.

AAGGHHH! Really? When discussing the brain, biology is irrelevant?


Get out of here, you ignant!

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Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
Just don't act like you know what would happen, is all I'm saying.

Anyone who has looked up what a lobotomy is and what it does can say what would happen, even if they lack the medical understanding to really get it.

Last edited by crazysam23_Atax : 02-10-2013 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:23 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd Hart
Yeah... no.

I think he meant that we're conscious energy that is a result of brain function. If literally everything that we will ever perceive is physically electric signals running along neurons, then aren't WE those electric signals? Which is just a type of energy really. It's 'sentient' matter interacting with 'none sentient' matter. Logic would infer that the concept of sentience doesn't exist, really. We don't exist. Not even talking in terms of personality and stuff, that's a whole 'nother thing. I mean, we perceive ourselves to exist, but that doesn't make it truth. In fact anything that we perceive will be as a prerequisite false.

Last edited by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT : 02-10-2013 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:24 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
AAGGHHH! Really? When discussing the brain, biology is irrelevant?


Get out of here, you ignant!
Damn dude calm down.

I'm not discussing "the brain" in terms of what it does, how it works, how it evolved, etc. I'm discussing philosophically who "you" are. Biology has nothing to do with it.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:26 PM   #52
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Biology has nothing to do with it.

it totally does, in fact would could go as far to say that it makes of 50% of 'it'
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:27 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
Damn dude calm down.

I'm not discussing "the brain" in terms of what it does, how it works, how it evolved, etc. I'm discussing philosophically who "you" are. Biology has nothing to do with it.

And others, including me, are saying that brain is part of your consciousness. You can't have a discussion of who "you" are without acknowledging that the brain is part of the equation. Without higher brain function, you won't be much more than a vegetable.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:31 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
And others, including me, are saying that brain is part of your consciousness. You can't have a discussion of who "you" are without acknowledging that the brain is part of the equation.
Ohhh I assure you I can. Think outside the box a little bit and consider what I'm saying. The brain affects who we are for sure, but we are not our brains. When some incurs brain damage they become different, but they don't lose part of themselves. They don't become less of a person.

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Without higher brain function, you won't be much more than a vegetable.
Maybe, but that still doesn't mean that the brain is who we are.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:31 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
I think he meant that we're conscious energy that is a result of brain function. If literally everything that we will ever perceive is physically electric signals running along neurons, then aren't WE those electric signals? Which is just a type of energy really. It's 'sentient' matter interacting with 'none sentient' matter. Logic would infer that the concept of sentience doesn't exist, really. We don't exist. Not even talking in terms of personality and stuff, that's a whole 'nother thing. I mean, we perceive ourselves to exist, but that doesn't make it truth. In fact anything that we perceive will be as a prerequisite false.


Why would it? How does the fact that our consciousness is based on shifting voltage gradients at all mean that it doesn't exist?

What is it with humans and feeling that if something can be explained scientifically it's somehow less special? Which is the more incredible thought? that you are the result of a unique arrangement of neurons and their interplay, or that you are 'some cloud of consciousness'? If you think it's the latter then you're an easily-amused prole.

'It's a poor poet who must fall silent when he discovers that the sun is a 1 million kilometer wide ball of fusing hydrogen.'
- Someone I can't remember.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
Ohhh I assure you I can. Think outside the box a little bit and consider what I'm saying. The brain affects who we are for sure, but we are not our brains. When some incurs brain damage they become different, but they don't lose part of themselves. They don't become less of a person.


They very much do, talk to anybody who's suffered brain damage and say that they've lost nothing of themselves when they're sat their unable to remember their son's existence.
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Last edited by Todd Hart : 02-10-2013 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:34 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
Damn dude calm down.

I'm not discussing "the brain" in terms of what it does, how it works, how it evolved, etc. I'm discussing philosophically who "you" are. Biology has nothing to do with it.

Yeah but no.
1. If you want to talk about souls and that jazz, whatevs. That's cool. But
2. At the very least your brain is how that soul perceives its surroundings, and without a brain you're unable to see your surroundings properly.
3. If you are unable to perceive your surroundings, you're 'conscious energy' isn't going to be very good at being conscious, since consciousness is being aware of your surroundings.
4. Philosophically, I agree with Vonnegut. "We are what we pretend to be." How you perceive yourself isn't very important, because ultimately the world is made up of other people, and your reactions will be with them. So how they perceive you is how you really are. And if they perceive you to be a drooling, lobotomized thing, then that's what you are.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:42 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
Ohhh I assure you I can. Think outside the box a little bit and consider what I'm saying. The brain affects who we are for sure, but we are not our brains. When some incurs brain damage they become different, but they don't lose part of themselves. They don't become less of a person.

Less of a person? No. Lose that part of themselves? Actually, as cases with brain injuries have shown, they truly could lose part of themselves. There's people who have huge personality changes after incurring brain damage. They literally do NOT act, think, or feel the same way.

Quote:
Maybe, but that still doesn't mean that the brain is who we are.

No, but it is PART of who we are. No one is saying the brain contains the entirety of "you" as a being. However, it does contain part of your personality, influences emotions, etc. At the very least, it affects how you see the world.

Last edited by crazysam23_Atax : 02-10-2013 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:42 PM   #58
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OP that's like the opposite of random.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:44 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
Why would it? How does the fact that our consciousness is based on shifting voltage gradients at all mean that it doesn't exist?

What is it with humans and feeling that if something can be explained scientifically it's somehow less special? Which is the more incredible thought? that you are the result of a unique arrangement of neurons and their interplay, or that you are 'some cloud of consciousness'? If you think it's the latter then you're an easily-amused prole.

It means that we're shifting voltage gradients as apposed to the constructs we imply upon ourselves e.g. being male, being white, being 50, being a janitor, liking metal, being an arsehole, liking coke, all these things all illusory and false. I didn't say it was less special, in fact I find it profoundly beautiful. I'd just say that consciousness is synonymous with neurons and their interplay.

And then look at personality. Well. You just see shit you like and you act like that, don't you. E.g. If you regard friendliness in high esteem, you'd want to employ it into your personality, you're being the concept of friendly, the concept of friendly is not you. "All the world is a stage and its people merely players" or some shit, -Will.I.Am Shakespeare
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:46 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
They very much do, talk to anybody who's suffered brain damage and say that they've lost nothing of themselves when they're sat their unable to remember their son's existence.
I'm not explaining myself very well, because it's really hard to find the proper words, but that's not what I mean. They've lost things that they had, but they're still "there" just as much as they were before, just under different circumstances.

Someone with no capacity for memory still exists just as much as someone with normal human capacity for memory, right? What we are, fundamentally, is just consciousness. And that is something that either is, or isn't. There's no "more conscious" or "less conscious". And by consciousness I don't mean intelligence or self-awareness or whatever, just the capacity to have an experience of some kind.
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