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Old 02-10-2013, 02:44 PM   #61
KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
Why would it? How does the fact that our consciousness is based on shifting voltage gradients at all mean that it doesn't exist?

What is it with humans and feeling that if something can be explained scientifically it's somehow less special? Which is the more incredible thought? that you are the result of a unique arrangement of neurons and their interplay, or that you are 'some cloud of consciousness'? If you think it's the latter then you're an easily-amused prole.

It means that we're shifting voltage gradients as apposed to the constructs we imply upon ourselves e.g. being male, being white, being 50, being a janitor, liking metal, being an arsehole, liking coke, all these things all illusory and false. I didn't say it was less special, in fact I find it profoundly beautiful. I'd just say that consciousness is synonymous with neurons and their interplay.

And then look at personality. Well. You just see shit you like and you act like that, don't you. E.g. If you regard friendliness in high esteem, you'd want to employ it into your personality, you're being the concept of friendly, the concept of friendly is not you. "All the world is a stage and its people merely players" or some shit, -Will.I.Am Shakespeare
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:46 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
They very much do, talk to anybody who's suffered brain damage and say that they've lost nothing of themselves when they're sat their unable to remember their son's existence.
I'm not explaining myself very well, because it's really hard to find the proper words, but that's not what I mean. They've lost things that they had, but they're still "there" just as much as they were before, just under different circumstances.

Someone with no capacity for memory still exists just as much as someone with normal human capacity for memory, right? What we are, fundamentally, is just consciousness. And that is something that either is, or isn't. There's no "more conscious" or "less conscious". And by consciousness I don't mean intelligence or self-awareness or whatever, just the capacity to have an experience of some kind.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:47 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
It means that we're shifting voltage gradients as apposed to the constructs we imply upon ourselves e.g. being male, being white, being 50, being a janitor, liking metal, being an arsehole, liking coke, all these things all illusory and false. I didn't say it was less special, in fact I find it profoundly beautiful. I'd just say that consciousness is synonymous with neurons and their interplay.

And then look at personality. Well. You just see shit you like and you act like that, don't you. E.g. If you regard friendliness in high esteem, you'd want to employ it into your personality, you're being the concept of friendly, the concept of friendly is not you. "All the world is a stage and its people merely players" or some shit, -Will.I.Am Shakespeare


That's a complete false dichotomy, and a false conclusion. The fact that your consciousness is electrical doesn't mean you can't be a fan of Tchaikovsky, any more than the fact that you're entirely made of cells does.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:51 PM   #64
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Did you know, you are your brain?


This.

Man, when you smoke weed at least have the decency to know when you're getting into Smart/Dumbshit mode without thinking you found the most profound idea in the universe.

The Brain controls every single thing you do, chemicals released by your brain create your emotions and control of your aspect and physical nature of your life. You might be thinking of a concept that dreams show you your past life through small spurts or bursts of what you may have been?

Either way, getting high was never this obvious.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:57 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
That's a complete false dichotomy, and a false conclusion. The fact that your consciousness is electrical doesn't mean you can't be a fan of Tchaikovsky, any more than the fact that you're entirely made of cells does.

Yeah but any and all perceptions we have of irl are as a prerequisite false and not the true nature of existence. Anything that we experience is just how we perceive it, that doesn't make it truth. Therefore us liking Tchaikovsky is an entirely fallacious concept. Even the idea of preferences are subjective and don't exist in an objective world, and you can't* look at reality subjectively cos you need to look at it as a whole.

"Where we ever even alive?
hell no
is any of this even real?
hell no"- that guy from LoG

basically, ego is 'I' am, whereas we are 'I am'
if u get mi

Last edited by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT : 02-10-2013 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 02-10-2013, 02:58 PM   #66
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TS needs to share his dealer, sounds fun man
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:00 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
Yeah but any and all perceptions we have of irl are as a prerequisite false and not the true nature of existence. Anything that we experience is just how we perceive it, that doesn't make it truth. Therefore us liking Tchaikovsky is an entirely fallacious concept. Even the idea of preferences are subjective and don't exist in an objective world, and you can look at reality subjectively cos you need to look at it as a whole.

"Where we ever even alive?
hell no
is any of this even real?
hell no"- that guy from LoG


The idea that their is a difference between truth and perception of reality is just philosophical nonsense. The truth is whatever it is perceived to be by conscious agents.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:09 PM   #68
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Well no cos that's synonymous with 'if you think something is someway then because you think it it is that way'
if I think obama is white cos I've never seen him, to me, personally, I perceive him as white. Shit example but its the same thing.

But that's like saying colours actually exist
they don't
different wavelengths of light exist, that we perceive as colour, colour doesn't really exist

same with sound taste smell and touch
density doesn't even exist for frigg sake matter is like 99% empty or some shit int it
just because we perceive shit to have density doesn't mean it actually has density
thats silly

neither does space nor time
and given that pretty much everything that we ascribe to ourselves is derived from our perception of reality, which is illusory, how can we be anything other than not real?

if you built a house out of bricks made out of poo, you have a poo house.

Last edited by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT : 02-10-2013 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:20 PM   #69
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Matter is actually 100% empty, even the protons and neutrons is just quantum information or some shit.
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:25 PM   #70
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CHAOS THEORY!
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:29 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
Matter is actually 100% empty, even the protons and neutrons is just quantum information or some shit.

well yeah init
how can we exist if we're and everything that defines us is matter and matter doesn't exist
?
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Old 02-10-2013, 03:31 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
well yeah init
how can we exist if we're and everything that defines us is matter and matter doesn't exist
?
Fuck if I know.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:42 PM   #73
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I don't understand how TS managed to describe determinism and then concluded everything is random.


Also on the whole mind/body thing: even if the mind is independent of the body (which I really don't think it is) if you're trying to get out of determinism that way you're really not going to get very far. In fact, even accepting indeterminacy in the universe you're not going to get any further disputing free will.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:03 PM   #74
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^ ts
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:52 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by guitarhero_764
Matter is actually 100% empty, even the protons and neutrons is just quantum information or some shit.

No it isn't, shut up.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:01 PM   #76
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Enlighten me then brotha.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:12 PM   #77
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aoidnapdfakondkadnjnao

anidnpiandinaidnifanpdfionafidnfkaldnknfdifnlekfnm mvineiapni;ankadskn;ladkn;lsfoine;fakn;dfoain;dfeo i;nadkkknhnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn




My sentiments exactly... down to the last kknhnnnnnnnnn.
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Matter is actually 100% empty, even the protons and neutrons is just quantum information or some shit.

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Old 02-10-2013, 07:14 PM   #78
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It's empty space in that the distance between a nucleus and an electron is really really very very far

The volume of an atom (10^-10 m in diameter) is about 15 times larger than the volume of a nucleus (roughly 1 fm, or 10^-15 m in diameter). It would be 99.9999999999999%

If you were to get gritty I guess you could split the nucleus into it's constituent parts, but there's not really any need for what I were getting at, that because of this, obviously our perception of density doesn't coincide with the true nature of reality.

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Old 02-10-2013, 07:17 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
It's empty space in that the distance between a neutron and an electron is really really very very far

The volume of an atom (10^-10 m in diameter) is about 15 times larger than the volume of a nucleus (roughly 1 fm, or 10^-15 m in diameter). It would be 99.9999999999999%

But the point I were trying to make was that because of this, obviously our perception of density doesn't coincide with the true nature of reality.


So are you saying that given the right conditions the Tractor Beam from Star Trek could be a reality?
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:20 PM   #80
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I'm saying something even as dense as a diamond is practically hardly anything. It means that all the matter in the entire universe could be clumped and squashed down into the size of (I think, maybe something bigger, like a tennis ball, I can't remember exactly what object it's similar to) a box of matches.

I'm just trying to talk about perception and stuff.
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