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Old 02-10-2013, 07:38 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
I'm just trying to talk about perception and stuff.

The universe is technically 'nothing' because of how far astral bodies are from one another. Consider how pointless that statement actually is. Distance is irrelevant - what matters is... matter... and its sub-constituents.
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Old 02-10-2013, 07:57 PM   #82
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It's not thaaaat pointless, though. Quantum fluctuations infer that the energy in nothing/a void (called zero-point energy) is (depending on the version of the theory you've ascribed to) is either infinate, or incredibly huge, in that the tiniest amount of Void would contain enough energy to create a whole new universe. More energy lies in a mm of nothing than in most of the universe.

Gonna start posting links to back up what I say from now on so people stop calling me a prick. http://www2.le.ac.uk/ebulletin/feat...cle-82w-fqr-2cd



The thing is, with matter, the closer you look at it, the less and less it decides to 'exist', in that it approaches 0 which is synonymous with infinity in this sense. So it's not a very reliable apparatus of measurement

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Old 02-10-2013, 08:04 PM   #83
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CHAOS THEORY!





This guy gets it.
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Old 02-10-2013, 08:54 PM   #84
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If you think the ordering of thoughts in your head has anymore direction than that of the nature of the ordering of molecules I'd have to ask you "where does this divine quality comes from?"

Now that's not to say it's random.... molecules have chemical and physical properties that allow them to be configured in one respect more easily than in others. But then again, that's not to say they will act in such a fashion. Individuals are more or less the same; the implications of their genetic and social conditions endows them a probability to take one course of action over another.

The idea that we have a will is something different. We construct a virtual reality through linguistic interaction. You're introduced to a thing, given it's symbol, and then present that symbol as if it were the thing-in-itself when you refer to it. Will (strictly in terms of "free will"), soul, spirit, all these are a symbol referring to an individual without the physical constructs that define an individual. If the reference point only exists within the language in which it's constructed then the word LITERALLY has no meaning. Might as well say "mankind is endowed with gibilty gobilty goo, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?"

However, if you refer to "free will"
as a relation between how an individual is per-subscribed to act as set by the circumstances of their life versus how they actually do act...well just think about the behavior of electrons; they're likely to act one way, but those few beat the odds.

We don't understand all the variables that dictate the behavior of matter, so clearly we don't understand the behavior of matter or people.
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Old 02-10-2013, 09:11 PM   #85
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You dont control anything in your life... its just your brain reacting to its enviroment, you just go with the flow.

But the way your brain reacts to the environment is based on ones personality. And personality is something only you yourself control.

If someone were to want to fight me, I can control wheather to walk away, or throw the first punch. I'm not being controlled to do one or the other.

Logic disproven. Think philosophically harder next time... ya dick.
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Old 02-10-2013, 10:10 PM   #86
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Enlighten me then brotha.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:25 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by teh_nubs101
But the way your brain reacts to the environment is based on ones personality. And personality is something only you yourself control.

If someone were to want to fight me, I can control wheather to walk away, or throw the first punch. I'm not being controlled to do one or the other.

Logic disproven. Think philosophically harder next time... ya dick.

But think about it, every (apparent) choice you make is defined by what you are at that exact moment, the things that define you are beliefs and preferences and, ultimately, at the root, we have no control over these. If you look at it from the moment of birth then everything is cause and effect, we only have the illusion of free will. We're even only one of few species who even have a concept of 'self', this doesn't mean that Self is a prerequisive of sentience, it means it's an add-on that our brains have given us. It;s illusory. You are not the voice inside your head, you are not Ego.
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:32 PM   #88
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:29 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by teh_nubs101
But the way your brain reacts to the environment is based on ones personality. And personality is something only you yourself control.

If someone were to want to fight me, I can control wheather to walk away, or throw the first punch. I'm not being controlled to do one or the other.

Logic disproven. Think philosophically harder next time... ya dick.


Personality's a product of genes and environment, neither of which you had any say in.

That said, in the everyday usage of 'free will' we do have it. That is simply that our actions can be said to be the non-coerced result of our own reasoning. But ultimately that reasoning is deterministic. It's when people start trying to fit one of these meanings of free will onto the other that we get a cluster**** like this.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:49 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by KiLLSWiTCH-KnoT
yeah man
spot on except it infers order, in fact. It's a lame term but when I'm describing this to other people I use the phrase 'Divine Fate' cos in a sense that's what it is

If we ascribe to the (incorrect) notion that we're separate from nature, the Newtonian Model shows us how the material world has to abide by strict laws of motion, this means all of the material world is predictable. If we were to know the direction and velocity of every every particle in the universe, we'd be able to punch the variables into a computer and get a model of how the universe would look x years into the future

That's a given, but then we have ourselves. I've always considered consciousness/personality as result of internal and external factors, genes and environment. This means we too are predictable, there are just a buttload more variables giving the appearance of chaos. If you think about it, 'pon de planck length , the trajectory of our thoughts follow a chain, as you said.

This throws the notion of free will out the ****ing window and proves how none of us even exist and it's cool as ****.

On a separate note, dissolution of the concept of 'meaning' gives everything profound purpose. Instead of it (whatever it may be, in this example, a particle a house a brick etc) existing for a specific need, it self-necessitates its own existence and meaning is a prerequisite and the purpose of it existing is it existing.

(:
nice thread 9/10
would be 10 if you didn't say it was random


Using your water analogy, imagine a pebble falling into a river. If we knew the speed/depth (all the variables we'd need for the calculation) of the river we could accurately measure where the stone would be (x)time into the future. We're that pebble, Maya is that river.


All the classic signs pseudo-science are here:

1. Starting of with scientific terminology: speed, depth, variables, time, x

2. Use of analogy without any proof that there is any correlation. "We're that pebble". Oh yeah?

3. Drawing profound conclusions involving life, death, and the immortality of the soul

4. Mentioning supposedly-wise ancient civilisations

But your science is well out-of-date. The Newtonian mechanical model has been known to be inadequate description of the known universe for a hundred years or more. Check out quantum theory, although this has also been hijacked by the woo-pedlars because it appears to say nothing is certain.

That being said, I don't have any answers to the nature of consciousness myself. But I don't just make stuff up and base my life on it. I just say "I don't know".
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:58 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teh_nubs101
But the way your brain reacts to the environment is based on ones personality. And personality is something only you yourself control.

If someone were to want to fight me, I can control wheather to walk away, or throw the first punch. I'm not being controlled to do one or the other.

Logic disproven. Think philosophically harder next time... ya dick.


That we FEEL we have free will is obvious. What you don't seem to understand that the philosophical question is whether we REALLY have free will.

You think "you" make the decision to walk away. What does that actually mean? If you are your brain and your brain is made of matter, everything you do or think follows physical laws, so no free will.

The only way you can keep free will is if "you" are not your brain and, whatever "you" are does not follow physical laws. Unfortunately there is no evidence to suggest this.

Our free will is real enough to us from the inside but I don't think it exists in the universal reality. Someone looking from outside would see our brains working to the laws of physics, and our thoughts and behaviour following suit. It would see us as deterministic, if complicated, computers.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:04 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by frusciante.ve
Im not good explaining my thoughts but Ill try to make it clear: everything is ruled by randomness, every single thought you have is a direct consequence of a previous event in your life, while you think you control what you do... you actually dont, its just your brain reacting to something.

You could say "oh yeah, well Ill touch my nose while I tap my foot... I decided to do that... its not randomness", but actually its a direct response from your brain to prove myself wrong and for previous events in your life... the first thing your brain comes up with is touching your nose while taping your feet.

You dont control anything in your life... its just your brain reacting to its enviroment, you just go with the flow.

Thanks

So what you're actualy saying is that everything is a result of 'cause and effect' rather than actual randomness. If everything was genuinely ruled by randomness, 'cause' would not lead to 'effect' because the two would be completely 'random' events rather than one event being responsible for the other.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:12 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by leeb rocks
Personality's a product of genes and environment, neither of which you had any say in.

That said, in the everyday usage of 'free will' we do have it. That is simply that our actions can be said to be the non-coerced result of our own reasoning. But ultimately that reasoning is deterministic. It's when people start trying to fit one of these meanings of free will onto the other that we get a cluster**** like this.

I don't have much to add, I just want to quote this so people see it again.


Even assuming your mind is entirely physically determined (which I would argue it is), you still have will as you've always thought you have.
Your reasoning and preferences and personality are all part of this physical machine and so physically determined, but that doesn't mean that when you act it isn't still because of your personality and preferences and projects etc. Everything that you value of YOU is still coming from YOU.


I should mention though that even assuming the mind is separate from body and thus not dictated by physical determinism, you're still in the same situation.
If you give someone a choice they think out which action they'd take and take it.
Say we then went back in time and watched again, or somehow replicated the EXACT situation and state of mind again: would they do anything different?

Of course not, why would they? And indeed, why you want it to be the case that they would?

Given a choice between x and y I might always choose y because of my personality, but does that mean I am not still meaningfully exercising my will? It's not free in a manner of speaking in that I wouldn't do otherwise, but the action I would do still springs from me.

If you're between determinism and indeterminism (at the very least on a personal level) it seems obvious to me that determinism preserves a lot more of what we want to call our own will and person and sense of responsibility than anything indeterminate does.

Essentially: why is us acting for no reason better than us acting for a reason? Would you hold someone more responsible for a spontaneous and random action than one entirely determined by who they are?
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:34 AM   #94
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If everything has a cause and effect then it's not truly random. If you randomly spin a spinner then where it lands is bias to how hard you spun it.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:48 AM   #95
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:53 AM   #96
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:54 AM   #97
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The thing about killswitch that gets me is that he's so interested that if he put down the blunts for a week and read credible literature he could be really knowledgeable about this stuff.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:55 AM   #98
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This is called determinism. It's widely accepted to be true among the scientific community I believe.


mfw quantum mechanics
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:58 AM   #99
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yo ts did u ever think that yr brain isnt actually the origin of consciousness but rather simply the device that acts as a receiver or a conductor?
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:26 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Zaphikh
The universe is technically 'nothing' because of how far astral bodies are from one another. Consider how pointless that statement actually is. Distance is irrelevant - what matters is... matter... and its sub-constituents.


Matter is mostly nothing as well, actually. Atoms are made up of about 99% empty space.
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