Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 02-13-2013, 10:44 PM   #21
jazz_rock_feel
Micropolyphoner
 
jazz_rock_feel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
I think Xiaoxi tends to forget there's a certain learning curve to beginning to learn counterpoint and harmony. As in, if you go in blind and just start listening to Bach hoping to magically begin writing flowing counterpoint, you'll be frustrated for a long time. I think there's a certain amount of 'book learning' needed (especially if you're doing it on your own without any guidance) before you can really start digesting the masters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
...no idea why everyone keeps advocating for technology. EastWest libraries are not going to teach you counterpoint or musical development. THESE are the basics, not which goddamn software to use.

Sons, I am disappoint

I'm not advocating using a notation software (although I can make an argument for it), I just find people have these weird notions that somehow it's better to write music by hand than with a computer which I like to dispel.
__________________
I don't know what music theory is.


Soundcloud. Look at it. Or don't.
jazz_rock_feel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 11:07 PM   #22
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
I think Xiaoxi tends to forget we're not Asian.


ftfy
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2013, 11:36 PM   #23
primusfan
Conspiracy Music Theorist
 
primusfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: LOLville, KY
^

i just came in here to say listen to a lot of music and trust your ear. i mean you can learn all the common practice period stuff. and that's cool. it's good to know. but i've forgotten a lot about counterpoint rules. that stuff's good to know i guess. but it's the 21st century. those rules don't really mean shit anymore. if you want to compose, you've probably already got some ideas of things you want to hear. just go with it. it's just music. sure, if you're writing for an orchestra you've got an awfully big palette to work with in terms of nuances and sounds. but just get down in the dirt and do it.

i'm not saying don't learn stuff. you should. but don't feel like you have to know everything there is to music before you start writing it. ultimately, just write the music you want to hear.
__________________
#DTWD

Last edited by primusfan : 02-13-2013 at 11:37 PM.
primusfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 05:47 AM   #24
Sloop John D
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
I found a surprisingly large number of music books at my local library. Just search for books on harmony, browse through them, and pick your favorite.
Sloop John D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 11:12 AM   #25
ChucklesMginty
Avicii - Levels
 
ChucklesMginty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Avicii - Levels
On another note, what about conducting?

How hard is it to learn, do you need lessons or can it be somewhat self taught?
__________________
Avicii - Levels
ChucklesMginty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 11:22 AM   #26
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChucklesMginty
On another note, what about conducting?

How hard is it to learn, do you need lessons or can it be somewhat self taught?

it depends, is it your orchestra paid off your money? if so, you need no qualifications and can do whatever the hell you want

if not, well, i wouldn't want some sub-30-year-old kid short of a damn prodigy conducting my professional musicians on my dime
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 11:35 AM   #27
ChucklesMginty
Avicii - Levels
 
ChucklesMginty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Avicii - Levels
Surely even if it's your music you still need some kind of knowledge of what you're doing. Because you're conducting ahead of what the musician's are actually playing?

Zappa used to conduct, but he never studied formally. He said he learned everything by reading and listening... But then he didn't do anything 'properly' either.
ChucklesMginty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 12:48 PM   #28
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChucklesMginty
Surely even if it's your music you still need some kind of knowledge of what you're doing. Because you're conducting ahead of what the musician's are actually playing?

Zappa used to conduct, but he never studied formally. He said he learned everything by reading and listening... But then he didn't do anything 'properly' either.


my point being that you don't have the resources to have anything to conduct so i'd step back and worry about the composition part for now. odds are, your recordings will be almost exclusively done in your DAW via MIDI unless you have a lot of money (you don't) or performance major friends with too much time on their hands (hahahaha)
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 12:51 PM   #29
ChucklesMginty
Avicii - Levels
 
ChucklesMginty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Avicii - Levels
I figured I'll start off writing some piano sonatas, because that way I can actually play them...

I'd really love to write some stuff for string quartet too. I guess it wouldn't be too hard to write them and arrange them for piano?

I'll get a day job soon and save up for some decent plugins... It just seems silly to buy something really good when I have no idea what I'm doing yet. Or buy cheaper plugins that are rubbish and personally I find it really hard to write anything good when I know the end result will sound like garbage. Like in school when we wrote stuff with MIDI sounds...
__________________
Avicii - Levels

Last edited by ChucklesMginty : 02-14-2013 at 12:53 PM.
ChucklesMginty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 01:21 PM   #30
jazz_rock_feel
Micropolyphoner
 
jazz_rock_feel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChucklesMginty
On another note, what about conducting?

How hard is it to learn, do you need lessons or can it be somewhat self taught?

Good conducting is impossible to learn through self study. You can learn beat patterns and copy how some of the greats cue and things like that, but learning the nuances of conducting isn't really something you can get from a book.
__________________
I don't know what music theory is.


Soundcloud. Look at it. Or don't.
jazz_rock_feel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 01:24 PM   #31
ChucklesMginty
Avicii - Levels
 
ChucklesMginty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Avicii - Levels
Alright, I'll have a think about that one when I'm in my 30s. I might have written something I like by then.
__________________
Avicii - Levels
ChucklesMginty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 01:34 PM   #32
Woffelz
Mmmm...donuts...
 
Woffelz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Land of Chocolate
Places to start

- Listen to a lot of classical music. Start with Mozart who's well known and followed classical conventions.
- Learn about figured bass, chord inversions and when to use them [e.g. the cadential 6/4 is I [6/4], V7 and then I]. Cadences, common progressions [e.g. I V7 ii V7 I] and the rules of harmony [e.g. no parallel fifths, no doubling thirds, always prepare the bass note for a chord in a 6/4 inversion, leading notes must rise, the 7th in a V7 must fall etc]
- Common conventions such as alberti bass [if you like Mozart's style].
- Forms and structure and how modulations link to them.
__________________
Your beliefs are only valid when they correspond with my own.

Twitter
Youtube
Soundcloud
Tumblr
Woffelz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 01:35 PM   #33
jazz_rock_feel
Micropolyphoner
 
jazz_rock_feel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
^That sounds more like steps to pass a theory class than steps to becoming a good composer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChucklesMginty
Alright, I'll have a think about that one when I'm in my 30s. I might have written something I like by then.


Don't get me wrong, conducting is a great skill to have as a composer and rudimentary conducting is better than no conducting. But if you mean conducting as in being a professional conductor in front of a professional orchestra, then it's not something you can learn on our own.

But like Hail said, take it one step at a time. You're not even technically a composer yet
__________________
I don't know what music theory is.


Soundcloud. Look at it. Or don't.

Last edited by jazz_rock_feel : 02-14-2013 at 01:37 PM.
jazz_rock_feel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 03:56 PM   #34
ChucklesMginty
Avicii - Levels
 
ChucklesMginty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Avicii - Levels
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
Don't get me wrong, conducting is a great skill to have as a composer and rudimentary conducting is better than no conducting. But if you mean conducting as in being a professional conductor in front of a professional orchestra, then it's not something you can learn on our own.


Hah, trust me I'm not thinking of that.

It's kind of silly, I always wave my arms along to music... I'd like to just understand what a conductor is doing really.
__________________
Avicii - Levels
ChucklesMginty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 04:31 PM   #35
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChucklesMginty
Hah, trust me I'm not thinking of that.

It's kind of silly, I always wave my arms along to music... I'd like to just understand what a conductor is doing really.


think of it like a sports coach, only he's waving around a big, ugly stick in front of your face all the time

and they use batons, too

most of the time they're doing a play-by-play of the score, queueing entrances/crescendos/timing/etc, but it's quite an intricate art when you get down and dirty with it

most of my exposure is from filling in for drum majors in HS tho so i scooted by on the bare minimum

Last edited by Hail : 02-14-2013 at 04:33 PM.
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 04:42 PM   #36
Xiaoxi
Indeed.
 
Xiaoxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bodymore, Murdaland
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
I think Xiaoxi tends to forget there's a certain learning curve to beginning to learn counterpoint and harmony. As in, if you go in blind and just start listening to Bach hoping to magically begin writing flowing counterpoint, you'll be frustrated for a long time. I think there's a certain amount of 'book learning' needed (especially if you're doing it on your own without any guidance) before you can really start digesting the masters.
Guide or no guide, I've yet to personally know of anyone who's good by the books and can write music that doesn't sound like it came out of Chapter 7.

Is there a certain amount of awareness that a book can bring? Yes. But all too often they trap people into a false perception.
__________________
"Man, modes 'n' scales ain't got no users, only abusers." - X.X. Little

Analyzing Brahms: Insights to Help Us Improve Our Music

My New Workstation
Xiaoxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 04:44 PM   #37
ChucklesMginty
Avicii - Levels
 
ChucklesMginty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Avicii - Levels
So I just start writing and hope for the best, then work from there?

Alright, but I need to learn what a sonata is before I can write one.
__________________
Avicii - Levels
ChucklesMginty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 04:44 PM   #38
Xiaoxi
Indeed.
 
Xiaoxi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bodymore, Murdaland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
think of it like a sports coach, only he's waving around a big, ugly stick in front of your face all the time

and they use batons, too

most of the time they're doing a play-by-play of the score, queueing entrances/crescendos/timing/etc, but it's quite an intricate art when you get down and dirty with it

most of my exposure is from filling in for drum majors in HS tho so i scooted by on the bare minimum

The primary role of the modern professional conductor is to unify the expression in performance, beyond any mechanical details like cues or dynamics. They have to lock in the entire orchestra on a spiritual, almost psychic level.

And no, Frank Zappa does not even begin to qualify as a conductor.

There are a number of videos on YouTube which has some insights into the art of conducting from Leonard Bernstein, Arturo Toscanini, Carlos Kleiber, Sergiu Celibidache
__________________
"Man, modes 'n' scales ain't got no users, only abusers." - X.X. Little

Analyzing Brahms: Insights to Help Us Improve Our Music

My New Workstation

Last edited by Xiaoxi : 02-14-2013 at 04:49 PM.
Xiaoxi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 04:45 PM   #39
ChucklesMginty
Avicii - Levels
 
ChucklesMginty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Avicii - Levels
No, but he did manage to conduct and everyone played in time.
__________________
Avicii - Levels
ChucklesMginty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 04:46 PM   #40
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
The primary role of the modern professional conductor is to unify the expression in performance, beyond any mechanical details like cues or dynamics. They have to lock in the entire orchestra on a spiritual, almost psychic level.

And no, Frank Zappa does not even begin to qualify as a conductor.


idk yellow shark was pretty fuckin cool, dude
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:39 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.