Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 02-15-2013, 06:50 PM   #1
Kyleisthename
Registered User
 
Kyleisthename's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Formula for figuring out syncopated time signatures?

Hello,

I'm currently tracking some ideas and a part of the track alternates between 25/8 and 13/4. But I can't figure out how to put a solid groove against such a weird signature.


Is there some kind of formula to determine how to get say 4/4 in a different bpm to match up with the start and ending beats in 25/8?


I hope someone can understand what I'm trying to do.


Wow, I went ******ed typing the title
__________________
My band

The Youtubes

Last edited by Kyleisthename : 02-15-2013 at 06:54 PM.
Kyleisthename is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 06:56 PM   #2
TheHydra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
So you want to play 25/8 over 4/4 and have them match up?
TheHydra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 06:57 PM   #3
Kyleisthename
Registered User
 
Kyleisthename's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Yes
__________________
My band

The Youtubes
Kyleisthename is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 06:58 PM   #4
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
 
rockingamer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rainy Northwest
I'm more inclined to believe that the time signatures are actually simpler than what you posted and you are over complicating things.
__________________
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^

"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity."

MUSIC THEORY LINK

SteamID: CarrionComfort
rockingamer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:00 PM   #5
Kyleisthename
Registered User
 
Kyleisthename's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
I mean I could split them up into
6/4 13/8 and the next would be 2 mesures of 13/4

But that is a complete pain to make all that signature changes in my daw.
__________________
My band

The Youtubes
Kyleisthename is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:02 PM   #6
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
 
rockingamer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rainy Northwest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyleisthename
I mean I could split them up into
6/4 13/8 and the next would be 2 mesures of 13/4

But that is a complete pain to make all that signature changes in my daw.

No. I mean that you're counting the music wrong.
__________________
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^

"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity."

MUSIC THEORY LINK

SteamID: CarrionComfort
rockingamer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:06 PM   #7
Kyleisthename
Registered User
 
Kyleisthename's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockingamer2
No. I mean that you're counting the music wrong.

I'm not, I just combined 2 alternating signatures to make it more simple to program the changes in Reaper.

All I asked was if there was a formula to figure out how to syncopate any 2 rhythms.
__________________
My band

The Youtubes

Last edited by Kyleisthename : 02-15-2013 at 07:08 PM.
Kyleisthename is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:06 PM   #8
TheHydra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Why do you want to do it this way? Are you not capable of grooving in 25/8? If so, why are you playing in that meter?
TheHydra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:19 PM   #9
Kyleisthename
Registered User
 
Kyleisthename's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHydra
Why do you want to do it this way? Are you not capable of grooving in 25/8? If so, why are you playing in that meter?

I was going to do it to make the thing easier to play drums over.

I guess not being able to groove in a meter makes it off limits.



I'm guessing neither of you know of a way to do this other than just feeling it out.
__________________
My band

The Youtubes

Last edited by Kyleisthename : 02-15-2013 at 07:23 PM.
Kyleisthename is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:25 PM   #10
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
 
rockingamer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rainy Northwest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyleisthename
I was going to do it to make the thing easier to play drums over.

I guess not being able to groove in a meter makes it off limits.



I'm guessing neither of you know of a way to do this other than just feeling it out.

My issue is that I really doubt whatever you have written is actually in those time signatures. You also don't seem to know what syncopation means.
__________________
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^

"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity."

MUSIC THEORY LINK

SteamID: CarrionComfort
rockingamer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:28 PM   #11
Mathedes
Dissonant Unison
 
Mathedes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: PP, Wisconsin
Write the riff before the time signature.
__________________
Bach in Black! (A performance)

We're all alright!
Mathedes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:30 PM   #12
TheHydra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyleisthename
I was going to do it to make the thing easier to play drums over.

I guess not being able to groove in a meter makes it off limits.



I'm guessing neither of you know of a way to do this other than just feeling it out.

I just want to know why you would want to play in a meter that you're incapable of playing in. I mean, it seems like a simple answer to a simple problem. If you're not good at playing in 25/8, just practice at it until you get good at it.

There's probably a way to do it, but I doubt it'll help you much. If you can't get a good groove in 25/8 by itself, I don't think trying to play in 4/4 under it will be much easier. You'd still have to rely on a developed sense of rhythm, and a formula can't give you that. I've practiced things like simple 2 over 3 polyrhythms for a couple years now just sitting around wherever I am, listened to music filled with the sounds I want to emulate (this is the important part), made a hobby of juxtaposing rhythms over whatever songs I listen to, done silly Guitar Pro experiments, used special metronomes designed for weird polyrhythms and polymeters, and yet I still suck at them. I'm better than the average person, but I have a long ways to go. There's just no getting around the effort you have to put in. Math is no substitute for ears.

Last edited by TheHydra : 02-15-2013 at 07:33 PM.
TheHydra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:32 PM   #13
Disturbed_EMG
UG's Howling Hawk
 
Disturbed_EMG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Somewhere nice
Pardon the self-promotion, but I wrote this track (1:59) that alternates 15/8, 6/4, 13/8 and 17/16 and I found that with a nice drum part, it will come together otherwise you're better off doing something else.

You could always hold a constant 4/4 beat over it and get some displaced polymetric stuff going on.
__________________


Ever wonder what happens when Ron Swanson meets 8 string guitar? I bet you're pretty curious now.
Disturbed_EMG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:49 PM   #14
TheHydra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Let me ask something more simple: if you can't feel out 4/4 over 25/8, how is actually playing in it going to be any easier?
TheHydra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 09:59 PM   #15
Kyleisthename
Registered User
 
Kyleisthename's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHydra
Let me ask something more simple: if you can't feel out 4/4 over 25/8, how is actually playing in it going to be any easier?

Because I would be able to put 4/4 over 25/8 in my DAW and practice it that way.
In your previous post you said it would be hard for me to play in 4/4 which is even more undermining of my abilities than rockingamer's post. That wasn't even part of the question even though I accidently typed syncopation when I meant polyrhythm.

I made an idea in an odd meter that I'm not used to playing in. I'm not going to throw it out because I'm unfamiliar with playing in that meter.


Ignore anything about my personal writing since everyone already ignored my question.




All I want to know is a formula I could use to mess around with polyrhythms.

There has to be something out there.
__________________
My band

The Youtubes

Last edited by Kyleisthename : 02-15-2013 at 10:09 PM.
Kyleisthename is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 10:36 PM   #16
TheHydra
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyleisthename
Because I would be able to put 4/4 over 25/8 in my DAW and practice it that way.
In your previous post you said it would be hard for me to play in 4/4 which is even more undermining of my abilities than rockingamer's post. That wasn't even part of the question even though I accidently typed syncopation when I meant polyrhythm.

I made an idea in an odd meter that I'm not used to playing in. I'm not going to throw it out because I'm unfamiliar with playing in that meter.


Ignore anything about my personal writing since everyone already ignored my question.




All I want to know is a formula I could use to mess around with polyrhythms.

There has to be something out there.

It would be hard for you to play in 4/4 against 25/8 if you can't feel 4/4 against 25/8 already. That's two meters with two seperate pulses going at once, and honing in on one can be very challenging, even if it's just simple 4/4. Also, I believe you're asking to know more about polymeter, not polyrhythm. You're juxtaposing two entire meters which can have anything happen within their constraints, rather than two rigid rhythms.

If you want to find what 4/4 over 25/8 would sound like, I think this could help. The interface is complete shit, but it does what it says on the tin: http://bouncemetronome.com/
TheHydra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 11:08 PM   #17
jazz_rock_feel
Micropolyphoner
 
jazz_rock_feel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Canada
I haven't read the thread, but has anyone pointed out that 25/8 is a fucking absurd time signature?
jazz_rock_feel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 11:21 PM   #18
rockingamer2
Larmarky Remark
 
rockingamer2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Rainy Northwest
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
I haven't read the thread, but has anyone pointed out that 25/8 is a fucking absurd time signature?

*raises hand*

Well, not in those words, but yes.
__________________
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^

"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity."

MUSIC THEORY LINK

SteamID: CarrionComfort
rockingamer2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 11:29 PM   #19
AWACS
Lord Steward
 
AWACS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The frozen wasteland that is, canada.
Count it in groups of 5?
__________________
Caution: This post may contain my opinion and/or inaccurate information.

Mesa Boogie Mark V '12 PRS SE CU24Blackstar HTV-212
Dunlop CryBaby WayHuge Swollen Pickle Digitech Bad Monkey TCE Corona Boss DD-6 HBE Mimic TCE Ditto
AWACS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 11:36 PM   #20
Angusman60
I think, therefore, I am.
 
Angusman60's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
So why not play two measure of 4/4 and one of 9/8? It's the same number of 8th notes.
__________________
2010 Gibson SG Honeyburst
I'm a musician, a composer, and a theory nut. Pleased to meet you! Check out my websites and drop me a line.

"The essence of all beautiful art, all great art, is gratitude. " ~ Freidrich Nietzche


My Website
Angusman60 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:00 AM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.