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Old 02-18-2013, 10:45 AM   #21
cdgraves
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Modes are just other scales, guys. It's not that they're stupid, there's just nothing special about them.

The problem is that a lot of guitarists think modes are a central melodic concept. They are not. The arpeggio should be your basic melodic building block. Everything you do melodically must relate to the underlying harmony.

Because everything has to relate to the harmony, everything you play will be based on it. If you are in C major and playing over a C major chord, nothing you do will be anything but some combination of C major (unless you're using accidentals). Staring a lick on E doesn't make it E phrygian - it's just C major lick starting on E.

That said, you can use modes harmonically by basing your chord structure on them (like using a Imaj7 - Vmaj7 vamp) and play appropriately to the harmony. I'd call that a good, creative use of modality.

Last edited by cdgraves : 02-18-2013 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:26 AM   #22
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Im the mode-mingler in question, here. Regardless of how deep my face is in the sand, i reckon modes are useable. And no, I dont get my modes from Yngwie Malmsteen, I got a sheet in my music class about modes where they were used as particular types of scales, and examples of them, which is where I learned about them from


Well, "usable" is the key work here. You can use the names to explain or describe note choice, and that's very useful. Lots of jazz colleges (or jazz influenced teachers, including myself) use modal names to describe what notes people play over chords or progressions.

However, modal music in it's original form is completely unrelated to this.

So, in short

Learning a bunch of useful scales and calling them modes - absolutely fine as far as I'm concerned. As long as you understand you're playing in a key and very rarely a mode.


ED: and as UG resources on the subject of modes, http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/foru...ad.php?t=187159

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Old 02-18-2013, 11:55 AM   #23
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Modes are useless because we have keys. Although, I kinda wish we could keep the names of the modes in the key system at least. They sound more bad-ass than 'major' or 'minor.'
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:06 PM   #24
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What a fucking ball ache this is.
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:37 PM   #25
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I am aware that modal music means that it has no key, I had to study Serialism and Expressionism and what have you. I'm also aware that once you use a mode in a key, it ceases to be a mode. What he and i are arguing about is whether or not modes are completely useless or not. I don't think they are, because of the fact that I can use them as a scale if i want to. When being given tips on composing, we were told to do all sorts of things with a melody when we were stuck;
Play it backwards
Reflect it in a mirror
Sequence it up or down in pitch
Take bits of it and repeat them
Double it up
The list goes on. When you look at all these, using modes as a base from which you derive scales or what have you isn't so strange
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:07 PM   #26
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he's being a knob. Can the community band together to make him realise the error of his ways? He may have downs.

Here's a few texts he's been sending me, so you can see where he's at.

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look, i know my shit, okay. And if there are professionals and teachers who have the same view as me then there must be some substance in what im saying.

Why would everyone, guitar teachers and players included, be wrong about scales being derived from modes? And maybe in your opinion scales are useless if you have a good ear, but i think they are good. Especially for soloing, where you can base a recurring melody on a scale

Referencing alan's scale article

d remember what that dude said, the one who was talking about scales with random notes and accidentals and shit and giving them a name generated name? Well, its essentially that with modes, he even said that. You derive the scale from the mode. I dont care that we have been over this a million times, thats my philosophy and im staying with that because it makes the most sense to me, especially how people use them today. Or say they do.

End quotes. If you could also post some credentials for you know, shits and giggles or whatever that'd be nice. Because I want to punch him and his head in the sand.

Thank you, everyone.


Don't be stupid, scales and modes are completely useful. Stop giving your friend advice based on advice that you got on the internet, you're in most cases doing more harm than good.

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Old 02-18-2013, 02:15 PM   #27
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Old 02-18-2013, 02:43 PM   #28
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Don't be stupid, scales and modes are completely useful. Stop giving your friend advice based on advice that you got on the internet, you're in most cases doing more harm than good.


Pretty much this.

I hate it when people say that scales/modes/keys are useless, and anyone who has given them up has already learned them and moved past them. It doesn't make them useless and they provide a solid basis for learning theory and how music functions.

Sure you can think of music as just pitch in time which is how the advocates of scales/keys are useless write music, but without an understanding of resolution and function you're going to be shooting in the dark.

A dozen monkeys could type out all of Shakespeare's works, but it would take them an incredibly long time because they have no direction and no idea how to do it.

Modes are useless the majority of the time though, I would prefer if most people forgot they existed.

But from starting off in theory, Scales and keys are extremely helpful for a foundation.
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:22 PM   #29
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i'm going to preface this by saying i can only speak on this from a jazz perspective:

i don't think anyone thinks scales are completely useless per se; i think a lot of the advocates (myself included) against chord-scale theory and the like just use strong language to counteract how engrained the CST method has become.

they're not dumb and useless. it's easy for a beginner when you say "when you see this chord, this is the suggested scale" rather than "here's your tonic and you have 12 notes to choose from. just play what you hear in your head." well a lot of times they don't hear anything. hell, a lot of times i barely hear anything.

now i feel it's kind of a cookie cutter approach to playing music and it's fast tracking what is typically a lifelong process. the reason people argue against scales is it CAN hinder the development of musicality. if your practice regimen is strictly scales and such, that's not going to help you. but to say they're dumb and useless is dumb and useless.

this is how i utilize scales:

i have a few different exercises written out in my notation program. one is a bunch of different scales (major, dorian, mixolydian, HW dim, WH dim, dim whole tone, lydian, etc) in one particular key. along with that, i have an accompanying organ part playing the chord it "corresponds with." sometimes i'll just take one particular scale and do it through a cycle of fourths. i hit play and play along with the scale and accompanying organ. this helps with a few things (on bass):

1) technical exercise/dexterity
2) fingerboard knowledge (saying note names as i play them)
3) hearing how the notes of a particular scale sound with a particular chord
4) intonation. i record myself playing and try best to match my intonation to the computer
5) timing. in a similar respect, i can see how well i hold a tempo and where i deviate from it
6) it's time at the instrument doing something. anytime you're doing that, it's positive.

and after i do that, i try to just transcribe or play some bach or sight read or some shit. and i don't really think about it while playing or analyzing.

run through your scales/arpeggios. but don't think about it too much when you're doing it. i mean you can think about it. but meh. to each their own. to me scales and to some degree arpeggios (although i put a bit more stock in them than scales) are like push ups and weight training. doing them in thirds, fourths, fifths, sixths, sevenths, octaves, tenths, one/two/three octaves. playing them broken up into phrases of three (do re mi, re mi fa, mi fa sol, etc) or fours (tetrachords).

when a linebacker plays football, he's not thinking about push ups and leg presses. he's not even thinking about drills in practice. he's done that training so he doesn't have to think about it. he has his assignment (man/zone/whatever) but ultimately it comes down to just playing his position with a combination of talent, instinct, experience and that reserve of exercising and physical training he's built up.

scales are for the shed just like push ups are for the gym. what would happen if that guy's supposed to get out on the field and run a blitz. then, instead, when the ball's snapped he just drops to the ground doing crunches? when it's time to train, train. when it's time to play, play.

and even still, i would still recommend the majority of practice be focused on training your ear with intervals. just listen to phrases and play them back. playing a note and knowing where you want to go based on the interval you hear is basically what i do. and sometimes i'm wrong. but when i'm working at it regularly, i get less wrong.

TL;DR scales are not dumb and useless, but only if you put them in the right context of practice.
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:24 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal
Pretty much this.

I hate it when people say that scales/modes/keys are useless, and anyone who has given them up has already learned them and moved past them. It doesn't make them useless and they provide a solid basis for learning theory and how music functions.

Sure you can think of music as just pitch in time which is how the advocates of scales/keys are useless write music, but without an understanding of resolution and function you're going to be shooting in the dark.

A dozen monkeys could type out all of Shakespeare's works, but it would take them an incredibly long time because they have no direction and no idea how to do it.

Modes are useless the majority of the time though, I would prefer if most people forgot they existed.

But from starting off in theory, Scales and keys are extremely helpful for a foundation.

Who has said that keys are useless? I think everybody here is telling everybody not to think in scales/modes but keys. Keys are pretty useful. If you understand keys well, you don't need scales, let alone modes.

Everybody always thinks "what scale [insert a guitarist] uses" when the correct answer could be found by looking at the key of the song. I actually want to get rid of scales. They kind of make you think: "now I'm going to play major scale, now I switch to mixolydian." People should concentrate more on chords they are playing over (and of course not to think in C Am Dm G = ionian aeolian dorian mixolydian - that's so limiting).
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:31 PM   #31
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(and of course not to think in C Am Dm G = ionian aeolian dorian mixolydian ....


lol definitely not. that's such a mind**** when you've only got two beats per chord, especially when each of those is just a C major scale. so much easier to just think "C major for two bars" than "each mode for two beats."
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:38 PM   #32
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Who has said that keys are useless? I think everybody here is telling everybody not to think in scales/modes but keys. Keys are pretty useful. If you understand keys well, you don't need scales, let alone modes.


Xaoxai (I spent like 5 minutes trying to type his name, its driving me insane) and some of the other higher ups on this forum have that perspective and I agree with it, although having beginners in theory learn Scales and keys is probably one of the better ways to get a foundation in it.
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Old 02-18-2013, 05:49 PM   #33
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X i a o X i

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And are you sure about the regs thinking keys are useless? I was pretty sure it was the other way around...
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:14 PM   #34
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Modes bore me so I avoid them.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:31 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
Don't be stupid, scales and modes are completely useful. Stop giving your friend advice based on advice that you got on the internet, you're in most cases doing more harm than good.



e: hold up hold up hold up, i don't think any of the regs here has ever said keys are useless.

Last edited by Hail : 02-18-2013 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 02-18-2013, 06:42 PM   #36
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Switching accidentals in and out is always a good way to get a different sound and then adding or subtracting notes will do that too. It's a method of trial but its fun because of the discovery aspect; at least for me anyway.
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:14 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spaztikko
he's being a knob. Can the community band together to make him realise the error of his ways? He may have downs.

Here's a few texts he's been sending me, so you can see where he's at.

Quotes:
look, i know my shit, okay. And if there are professionals and teachers who have the same view as me then there must be some substance in what im saying.

Why would everyone, guitar teachers and players included, be wrong about scales being derived from modes? And maybe in your opinion scales are useless if you have a good ear, but i think they are good. Especially for soloing, where you can base a recurring melody on a scale

Referencing alan's scale article

d remember what that dude said, the one who was talking about scales with random notes and accidentals and shit and giving them a name generated name? Well, its essentially that with modes, he even said that. You derive the scale from the mode. I dont care that we have been over this a million times, thats my philosophy and im staying with that because it makes the most sense to me, especially how people use them today. Or say they do.

End quotes. If you could also post some credentials for you know, shits and giggles or whatever that'd be nice. Because I want to punch him and his head in the sand.

Thank you, everyone.

You are both knobs, I mean cunts.
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:31 PM   #38
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To suggest knowledge and application of anything musical is a waste of time only shows the short-sightedness of the person who suggests it.

CT
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:33 PM   #39
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To suggest knowledge and application of anything musical is a waste of time only shows the short-sightedness of the person who suggests it.

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that's implying scales are musical
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Old 02-18-2013, 07:44 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Hail
that's implying scales are musical


just to clarify: we're talking about a sequence of ordered musical notes, not the things on reptiles.
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