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View Poll Results: Are video games an artform?
Yes 96 50.79%
No 10 5.29%
Not inherently, but some games could be considered as such. 75 39.68%
Mommy doesn't let me rot my brain 8 4.23%
Voters: 189. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:39 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by goest
I disagree with this. They've created art that you then become a part of. Especially in open-world games, where they've built a world out of nothing but imagination and now give you the means to create your own experience with said art. It's like one big installation piece.


Again, the stage vs the play. You are the actor creating art. Games don't come to be enjoyed as is. Watching an idle game would be like watching an idle stage. It has potential for artistic expression, but it's missing a piece: the creativity of the gamer. Video games on their own don't amount to much more than a few set pieces for which to play theater or sport. How they are to be used is up to the player.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:40 AM   #82
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What about times when the gameplay is intended to constitute art? What about when the art influences gameplay?

I think what you're presenting is a bit of a false dichotomy imo.

I would respond to that by directing you to Godsmack_IV's post above me.

^^
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:41 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Godsmack_IV
Again, the stage vs the play. You are the actor creating art. Games don't come to be enjoyed as is. Watching an idle game would be like watching an idle stage. It has potential for artistic expression, but it's missing a piece: the creativity of the gamer. Video games on their own don't amount to much more than a few set pieces for which to play theater or sport. How they are to be used is up to the player.


And again, I say that they are giant interactive installation pieces. Art that calls out to the viewer to do with it as they wish.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:44 AM   #84
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Stop trying to broaden it out to where everything is "art", including the sandwich I made with the intention of eating it.

Did my last post make it seem like I'd be interested in what your intentions were? I'm not saying bread is art, I'm saying that when you chose to display your completed creation (using whatever medium) and it caused me to ponder on the consequences of food tech not being mandatory in schools (it looked inedible), then it became art.

Delivery of content -> interpretation -> art
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:44 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I would respond to that by directing you to Godsmack_IV's post above me.

^^

The nature of choice can be commented on by the options the game affords you.

For example, in Spec Ops: the line if you want to complete the game, you have to use white phosphorous on civilian refugees, otherwise you can't continue.

That was intentional, if the player does not want to kill civilians he can turn off the console and not play that game again. It questions what the player will do and endure in the name of completion or success, and draws a parallel to the in game story objectives and their terms of success.

Is that not artistic comment?
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:45 AM   #86
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In some senses, yes. But not games like Call of Duty.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:46 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Brick23
Delivery of content -> interpretation -> art

So, therefore...anything is art, if it's presented and can therefore be interpreted (even the interpretation is ridiculous)? That makes zero sense.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:49 AM   #88
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Actually, I never said SOLELY for the sake of art. (You guys seem to think that I think the one and only consideration has to be whether it was intended to be art. As I said to Resigar, it has to be one of the main considerations.) But, as I said in post #49., music always has an intent to be art, even if it's a very simple style of music like the music of the Mario games.


if we're going to attempt to get inside the minds of the creators of art and non-art, i'd argue that a good composer composes strictly for the sake of supporting whatever the music is supposed to be set to. so all soundtracks are not guided by artistic intent, but rather the medium it is meant to support. but obviously, soundtrack composition is an art form. the intent is not artistic, but there is room for artistic freedom. so how do you draw the line? artistic intent is an easy thing to say, but i cannot fathom how you would come up with a satisfying definition.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:50 AM   #89
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So, therefore...anything is art, if it's presented and can therefore be interpreted (even the interpretation is ridiculous)? That makes zero sense.

Enter Yoko Ono...
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:53 AM   #90
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Play ten minutes of Saints Row III and tell me that isn't art.

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Old 02-25-2013, 12:53 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by vIsIbleNoIsE
if we're going to attempt to get inside the minds of the creators of art and non-art, i'd argue that a good composer composes strictly for the sake of supporting whatever the music is supposed to be set to. so all soundtracks are not guided by artistic intent, but rather the medium it is meant to support. but obviously, soundtrack composition is an art form. the intent is not artistic, but there is room for artistic freedom. so how do you draw the line? artistic intent is an easy thing to say, but i cannot fathom how you would come up with a satisfying definition.

The satisfying definition is simple. If one of the main considerations is that it is intended to be art, then it is art.

Using your example, there are many artistic soundtracks. Consider some of the Final Fantasy soundtracks. (A game series which I do consider art, btw.) Many of those are actually fairly complex themes, even if the individual melodies of those themes are simple. They are intended to both support the game and to be artistic.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:07 AM   #92
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So, what's ya'll's definitions of Art?

What is Art and what is Entertainment?

Are paintings, drawings, movies, music, games, dances, and et cetera Art or Entertainment? Are only some of them Art or none of them? Why?
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:09 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
The satisfying definition is simple. If one of the main considerations is that it is intended to be art, then it is art.

Using your example, there are many artistic soundtracks. Consider some of the Final Fantasy soundtracks. (A game series which I do consider art, btw.) Many of those are actually fairly complex themes, even if the individual melodies of those themes are simple. They are intended to both support the game and to be artistic.


whoa watch where you're going man, you're at a risk of tying musical complexity to artistic-ness.

and how do you know what the composer's (or game designer's) intentions were? what if two composers collaborated on a main theme, and (pretending we were able to determine their intentions) one had artistic aspirations, but the other just wanted to get it done so he could get on with scoring the next Spielberg movie? yet it turned out to be a really awesome and complex song that, if listened to by people with no idea that it was a soundtrack, blew minds?

my point is, there's always too much going on for it to be as simple as that.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:09 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
So, what's ya'll's definitions of Art?

What is Art and what is Entertainment?

Are paintings, drawings, movies, music, games, dances, and et cetera Art or Entertainment? Are only some of them Art or none of them? Why?


Why not both?
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:10 AM   #95
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^Art and entertainment are mutually exclusive?

EDIT: what goest said
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:13 AM   #96
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So, therefore...anything is art, if it's presented and can therefore be interpreted (even the interpretation is ridiculous)? That makes zero sense.

I'm not trying to argue that literally everything is art, I am saying that to say that to distinguish Product A from Product B based on what you imagine the author's intent to be is arbitrary and elitist. And yes, my expansion on your metaphor was meant to highlight that your product wasnt art because it was private, if you made it public it could've been
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:24 AM   #97
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Why not both?


That too. I forgot to include that part.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:25 AM   #98
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I'm not trying to argue that literally everything is art, I am saying that to say that to distinguish Product A from Product B based on what you imagine the author's intent to be is arbitrary and elitist.


and disrespectful as well. i remember one time i made a post here asking about a new bass guitar from Rondomusic and someone insisted that i was advertising. i felt raped =(
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:13 AM   #99
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And how do you know what the composer's (or game designer's) intentions were?

We can go around and around with this all day, but you're really making it more complex than it needs to be. You're over-thinking it. It really is as simple as "art being one of the main considerations". That's it. In the example you just brought up, fact is, one of the composers wanted it to be artists; that makes art a "main consideration".



It's not one of those things that needs to be analyzed to death. Either you agree with it, or you don't.

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And yes, my expansion on your metaphor was meant to highlight that your product wasn't art because it was private, if you made it public it could've been

I have no issue with that, provided I intended the sandwich to be "consumable art", not just a sale. It could, of course, be both a sale and consumable art. But I still would have to intend it to be so.

I'm not imagining a thing here. I'm merely saying that it's all in the hands of the creator. If a game is created mainly to make money or to have cool and interesting gameplay, for instance, it is not art. (The decision as whether it's mainly to make money or to have cool and interesting gameplay is up to the developer/programmers.) On the other hand, if it's created to be both art and to make money or to have cool and interesting gameplay (or all 3 of those), it is art. One of the main intents has to be art. Who decides whether art is a main intent is the creator.

Also, why would you put an apostrophe in "could've" and not in "wasn't"? /grammar nazi
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Old 02-25-2013, 02:17 AM   #100
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We can go around and around with this all day, but you're really making it more complex than it needs to be. You're over-thinking it. It really is as simple as "art being one of the main considerations". That's it. In the example you just brought up, fact is, one of the composers wanted it to be artists; that makes art a "main consideration".



It's not one of those things that needs to be analyzed to death. Either you agree with it, or you don't.


i think this has been brought up several times by different people but it seems you're ignoring it. how do you know what the intentions of the creator were? how do you even put yourself in a high enough position to be able to say what the reason someone did something for was, without them telling you? we are talking about whether an audience perceives something as art, and not whether the creator sees it as art, after all.
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