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Old 03-03-2013, 02:01 AM   #1
deepfat
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Can you play pentatonic patterns anywhere on the neck?

Meaning, can you play the first pattern of the minor pentatonic anywhere on the neck? In other words can I play that pattern starting on the A of the low E string making it in the key of A?
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Old 03-03-2013, 02:24 AM   #2
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don't play patterns or scales - play sounds, movements, accents, dynamics, rhythms

play off of the harmony

hell, just play

your ear will tell you a hell of a lot better what sounds good than your eyes and hands could dream of
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Old 03-03-2013, 02:38 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepfat
Meaning, can you play the first pattern of the minor pentatonic anywhere on the neck? In other words can I play that pattern starting on the A of the low E string making it in the key of A?


Im not sure which pattern you mean but yes you can move them around and just need to remember where the root is to determine the key.
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Old 03-03-2013, 02:41 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
don't play patterns or scales - play sounds, movements, accents, dynamics, rhythms

play off of the harmony

hell, just play

your ear will tell you a hell of a lot better what sounds good than your eyes and hands could dream of


I like the way you think, friend. I read recently about how the old bluesmen would learn to play guitar. They simply slowed down records or played along with the radio and figured it out. In other words, they learned musically. My approach is slowly shifting to that.
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Old 03-03-2013, 03:41 AM   #5
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Yep. Any pattern in any scale can be moved up and down the neck to change the key of it.
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Old 03-03-2013, 03:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
don't play patterns or scales - play sounds, movements, accents, dynamics, rhythms

play off of the harmony

hell, just play

your ear will tell you a hell of a lot better what sounds good than your eyes and hands could dream of


I Believe a healthy combination of ear playing and head knowledge of what and how you are playing will enhance your overall playing experience. Nothing better than playing with all your heart and soul, and knowing exactly what key/scales/patterns work and don't work, and forging your own path.


You gotta know what the rules are in order to break 'em!
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Old 03-03-2013, 04:51 AM   #7
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There's a pretty cool bit of (free) software for this, called guitar alchemist, it show's you the all the notes in the scale over 12 frets, so you can figure out how the scales run into each other
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Old 03-03-2013, 06:30 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by monkeyman3dee
Nothing better than playing with all your heart and soul, and knowing exactly what key/scales/patterns work and don't work, and forging your own path


it has nothing to do with heart and soul. "work" and "don't work" will come down to your ear based on the context - there's no such thing as a wrong note in the realm of tonality provided each note has its own purpose

absolutely learn chord construction and all you can about functional harmony. that doesn't mean scales and patterns, and much of what is going to be readily available with a basic musical vocabulary can very well be deduced by conventional logic and a strong ear.

within a key you can play any of the 12 given tones, and anything in between. it all goes down to playing with tension and resolution, dissonance and consonance, yin and yang to make it interesting. it's certainly a lot harder to sound "right" if you're not locked in a preset series of thoughts fermented in shapes and numbers, but it's certainly difficult for me to fathom the thought that any substance could come of the latter approach.

say what you will about modal jazz - those guys learned the rules before they broke them. the rules not being "what sounds right", but rather a foundation of functional harmony bolstered by intuition, common sense, and the ability to gut the harmony and melody of all it could offer in the realm of expression of both art and craft. that comes from your ear and your head, whether you're playing old blues licks in a garage or making some bastardization neotribal punk screaming through a didgeridoo or performing with a symphony

don't get me wrong; again, i'm not saying that you should deny yourself knowledge of conventions, and read all you possibly can, but by leaning on information found early on - particularly things that give shortcuts to beginners that jeopardize their musical development through lacked self-discipline in a field they're not yet familiar in - will inevitably deny the player knowledge that would be derived from learning self-reliance and developing the ability to be able to decide their approach in a well-informed way

no, having a good ear in and of itself will not make you a master of your instrument. but i guarantee that being a master of your instrument will be worthless without one. work on it while it's still fresh and you can kill several birds with one stone and clear out a lot of roadblocks later.

trust me, TS, from experience, i wasted years running exercises and suffered terribly in my ability to appreciate and perform music (emphasis on music, not bedroom wanking off). cut out tabs and shapes, learn by ear, and read and develop based on your natural curiosity rather than exclusively what the internet tells you. again, what's most important is that you develop the tools to help yourself

and never, ever even try to learn about modes. or i will find you. and i will kill you.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:15 AM   #9
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TS you should learn why these pentatonic shapes are the way they are. The answer to your question is "yes", but if you knew about keys and notes you'd already know that.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:33 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
it has nothing to do with heart and soul. "work" and "don't work" will come down to your ear based on the context - there's no such thing as a wrong note in the realm of tonality provided each note has its own purpose

absolutely learn chord construction and all you can about functional harmony. that doesn't mean scales and patterns, and much of what is going to be readily available with a basic musical vocabulary can very well be deduced by conventional logic and a strong ear.

within a key you can play any of the 12 given tones, and anything in between. it all goes down to playing with tension and resolution, dissonance and consonance, yin and yang to make it interesting. it's certainly a lot harder to sound "right" if you're not locked in a preset series of thoughts fermented in shapes and numbers, but it's certainly difficult for me to fathom the thought that any substance could come of the latter approach.

say what you will about modal jazz - those guys learned the rules before they broke them. the rules not being "what sounds right", but rather a foundation of functional harmony bolstered by intuition, common sense, and the ability to gut the harmony and melody of all it could offer in the realm of expression of both art and craft. that comes from your ear and your head, whether you're playing old blues licks in a garage or making some bastardization neotribal punk screaming through a didgeridoo or performing with a symphony

don't get me wrong; again, i'm not saying that you should deny yourself knowledge of conventions, and read all you possibly can, but by leaning on information found early on - particularly things that give shortcuts to beginners that jeopardize their musical development through lacked self-discipline in a field they're not yet familiar in - will inevitably deny the player knowledge that would be derived from learning self-reliance and developing the ability to be able to decide their approach in a well-informed way

no, having a good ear in and of itself will not make you a master of your instrument. but i guarantee that being a master of your instrument will be worthless without one. work on it while it's still fresh and you can kill several birds with one stone and clear out a lot of roadblocks later.

trust me, TS, from experience, i wasted years running exercises and suffered terribly in my ability to appreciate and perform music (emphasis on music, not bedroom wanking off). cut out tabs and shapes, learn by ear, and read and develop based on your natural curiosity rather than exclusively what the internet tells you. again, what's most important is that you develop the tools to help yourself

and never, ever even try to learn about modes. or i will find you. and i will kill you.



I understand what you're saying but with all that said, how do you approach daily practice?
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:46 AM   #11
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i don't structure it or really have set goals other than whatever it is that inspires me to pick up the instrument (right now being my voice and bass)

if i want to write, i'll write; if i want to learn music, i'll learn music; if i want to make lyrics, i'll make lyrics

it's a little lackadaisical, but at this point i'm at a stage where i just try and make music because i'm very familiar with my instrument. of course there's always room to grow, and i experiment with my writing and playing as much as i can, but i'm able to make everything a rudiment in and of itself so i don't need to sit and practice my thumping then my tapping then my popping - it all comes organically as i need it, and if i need to work on it, i can slow it down and work on it properly until it's organic

as long as you go with whatever you want to do, try to do whatever you think you can't do, and patiently work on whatever it might be that's beyond your threshold of comfort, eventually you'll be in a place where it's less a masturbation sport and more a canvas for you to work off of. you're not aiming for vague goals in speed and muscle memory - you're trying to reach something that inspires you, and it's invariably going to be more meaningful

for example, i don't have a keyboard on hand (yet) but i've been making due by sightsinging the well-tempered clavier and transposing certain voicings on bass so i can get into the mindset of performing a fugue just because it's something that eludes me and intrigues me. i mean, it's not anything i'll ever perform, but it's interesting and fun and helps clear my head from whatever tunnel vision i've run into at the time

i've also been doing various types of throat singing for god knows why, that keeps me on my toes
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Old 03-03-2013, 02:57 PM   #12
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I don't want to be dismissive of your experience, Hail, but I think for a lot of students, a little bit of structure goes a long way to facilitate learning.

Yes, that stuff can become a crutch. But I know one very successful jazz teacher, for example, who makes a point to teach his students (several have gone on to become pros, including ones you've probably heard of it if you listen to contemporary jazz) the pentatonic and get them soloing in it BEFORE they really know what it is. It's one of the first things he does.

Why? Because he wants them making music and having fun so that they fall in love with the instrument and making music. And then he starts throwing complicated stuff at people.

A lot of people, given a guitar and no instruction, will get frustrated. Whereas if you show them the pentatonic, they'll be smiling and having fun and making music. Which one of those students is going to keep at it?

I want to point out that you're actually NOT suggesting the method that you used. By your own admission, you learned a lot of the "wrong" stuff first, before you broke out of it. I would suggest that's actually one of the best ways to learn: learn some simple rules and patterns, and have fun with them.

And then move past them quickly.

Advice like "just play, you have all 12 notes" to someone who doesn't know enough to know that you can move a scale shape around is musically true, but pedagogically it's a nightmare.
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Old 03-03-2013, 03:48 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by HotspurJr
I don't want to be dismissive of your experience, Hail, but I think for a lot of students, a little bit of structure goes a long way to facilitate learning.


oh yeah absolutely, especially early on. the main thing being that i worked to find what works for me and can understand how i think to a point where i play off my strengths. i was just sharing how i work usually, which is heavily off of motivation/inspiration rather than forcing everything.

highlight "a little bit of structure", though, cause i get embarrassed by those guys who talk about how they play 5 minutes of major scales then 5 minutes of minor scales then 30 minutes of "artistic writing" then 30 minutes of "learning music" like it's a workout routine or something

Quote:
Advice like "just play, you have all 12 notes" to someone who doesn't know enough to know that you can move a scale shape around is musically true, but pedagogically it's a nightmare.


i'd never teach a student something boring, but that's the beauty of this medium, i think. i can speak in absolutes and people can take me as and when they want to take me (which is natural for me)

it's important to consider, though, even if you don't immediately abide by it. i've said it before: i absolutely do not expect people to follow my advice verbatim, hence why it's usually full of strong words and thoughts that might (read: do) border on dramatic for effect.

however, i didn't even consider that playing by ear, or playing outside of a scale, was possible for years. i like to think sharing my opinion in a world where 99% of people will disagree with me might plant a seed that will help people avoid some of the heartache.

i typically think and speak towards an ideal, eventual model. i'm not worried about the here and now - there's plenty of people talking about that, and none of us are getting paid for it, so i'm gonna be the guy talking about what you should be looking towards afterwards when things get serious and everything starts clicking a little bit.

that being said, if someone is motivated enough to be able to work through the hard parts of picking out songs by ear, i feel very confident that, after they've got a knack for it, they will be a lot more satisfied from the experience and derive far more than i would ever let them pay for if i were to be sucking their dick for an hour boosting their ego

P.S. if somebody starts paying me per post here, i'm very very willing to sell my soul and suck everybody's dick. and i mean everybody's. but until then i'm gonna keep doing this and posting gifs and calling people morons
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Old 03-03-2013, 03:57 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyman3dee
You gotta know what the rules are in order to break 'em!
That's resonating with me.


I'm hitting a wall because I'm SERIOUSLY loathed to study theory, and as such I really can't quite understand a lot of the jargon I need so that I can progress.

Take this thread for example.. my head just can't cope with all the terminology in it so a lot of it is lost on me. Although I know it's not that complicated I've developed a bad attitude to the theory so when my ears fail me I have nothing to fall back on to progress.


So yeah, in other simpler words.. what you said.
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Old 03-03-2013, 03:58 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deepfat
Meaning, can you play the first pattern of the minor pentatonic anywhere on the neck? In other words can I play that pattern starting on the A of the low E string making it in the key of A?

If it was a blues, generally speaking, yeah. Lol. If it was a more sophisticated in the key of "A", then you might want to try the...


..."minor pentatonic shape 1"...



































































...starting on the 2nd fret.
























































Lol, just fucking lol.
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Old 03-03-2013, 06:56 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by mdc
If it was a blues, generally speaking, yeah. Lol. If it was a more sophisticated in the key of "A", then you might want to try the...


..."minor pentatonic shape 1"...



































































...starting on the 2nd fret.
























































Lol, just fucking lol.


I was thinking of the root note on the A. No reason to be a dick about it.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:04 PM   #17
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Well, good luck with studying theory. The following should've knocked ten bells of shit out of you, hopefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
The answer to your question is "yes", but if you knew about keys and notes you'd already know that.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:21 PM   #18
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I never understood why some people on this site can't just answer questions instead of throwing jabs while doing so.

Let me let you in on a little something, not everyone is as experienced as others thus why the less experienced come here with questions. You can either give constructive advice or be an immature prick. Kind of obvious the route some go.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:33 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by deepfat
I never understood why some people on this site can't just answer questions instead of throwing jabs while doing so.

Let me let you in on a little something, not everyone is as experienced as others thus why the less experienced come here with questions. You can either give constructive advice or be an immature prick. Kind of obvious the route some go.

Stupid questions will receive stupid answers. Your OP, was fucking stupid.
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Old 03-03-2013, 09:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by mdc
Stupid questions will receive stupid answers. Your OP, was fucking stupid.


How can a question be stupid if it's from a non-experienced standpoint? I haven't been playing long and posed a question. You, knowing this, decided to take the time to be a dick. The mature thing to do is to answer to help or better yet, not reply at all.

You would probably be better off not giving advice because, obviously, you have little tolerance for beginners.
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