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Old 03-21-2013, 02:54 PM   #21
Phil Starr
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If you notice any links aren't working let me know and |'ll fix them UG are moving things around so the links are likely to break when the columns are moved.

Thanks
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:57 PM   #22
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Hi Alan, if you are still checking this thread I stumbled upon this clip about dealing with feedback. It illustrates what i was saying about finding the feedback point and using that to identify the problem areas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebfe...C4F7F359BE5EF61
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:08 AM   #23
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^^^ Cheers mate.

I'm going to sticky this thread.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:50 AM   #24
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Thanks Alan, I'll try and keep it up to date.

Any other PA experts are welcome to share their advice by the way.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:33 PM   #25
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Hey Phil;

Looking at playing medium-sized venues (200-ish people). According to your advice above, my initial "gut feel" of 400W/side seems about right. We're looking at running the mains off one side and three monitors in series off the other side.

We'd *like* to run everything through as much as possible - 1 guitar, bass, kick, snare, 3 vocal mics, whatever else we can squeeze through - not because we want to be deafeningly loud, but to disperse the sound more evenly throughout the room.

First question: would that power rating be in the ballpark of what we're looking for? Or could we get away with less... 300 or 250W?

Second question: I know that, the more you run through a PA (especially once you start running bass and drums), the more stuff competes with the vocals and therefore the more power you need. My perception is also that, the smaller the speakers, the more likely the sound is to smear between the higher and lower frequencies as they all try to hammer through, say, a pair of 12" speakers.

So, what would you suggest for speakers, with (for instance) a power amp that runs 400W/side?

Thanks!

CT
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Old 04-29-2013, 06:43 AM   #26
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Hi Chris,
looks like you are playing the sort of venues we play and I find my Peavey IPR1600 perfectly adequate (500W into 4ohms and 350ish into 8ohms which is what we have) Because the loudness of an amp is logarythmic increasing the power from 300W to 400W only gives just over a dB of extra sound so don't worry about 'small' differences in power. You really need to double amp power to get a really noticeable increase in capability. But, yes, this sounds about right

You are spot on about putting everything through the PA sounding better for the audience. The problem is bass and kick, possibly the floor toms. All of these have appreciable bass content which needs more power from the amp and more excursion from the speakers to work. I think the speakers are more likely to be a problem than the amp. With high power bass the speaker coils move right out of the magnets and the speakers will distort the sound. All of the sound, not just the bass.

If you are only going to put vocals/guitars through the PA 12" PA speakers will be perfectly adequate. If you are going to put just a little bass through you might get away with 15" speakers but I'd really look to using bass bins(subs) if you are putting everything through the PA. If transport is a problem you can get away with a single bass bin. If funds are tight then you can manage your way through this by buying good quality main speakers and a budget active sub. Our ears are less sensitive to bass so the sub is less critical and the active sub will have a volume control so you can match the volumes easily enough.

What sort of music do you play? that makes a difference.
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:44 PM   #27
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Hey, Phil... thanks for your detailed response. Glad to know I'm on the right track.

We're a cover band that does everything from Stevie Wonder to My Darkest Days, and from Gretchen Wilson to Van Halen, and P!nk to AC/DC.

CT
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:39 AM   #28
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Have you any idea of brands you'd look at yet? I use the Yamaha Club series (S112's and S118 subs) but I heard a band using JBL's the other day and they sounded great. Not sure what you can get out there, I'd guess European speakers might have a bit of a mark up. I wouldn't go for Peavey tops though. Not until they start making a good quality horn driver. The Black Widow bass drivers are excellent though so their subs are OK.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:33 PM   #29
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Hard to rule out Behringer, just based on price, but ideally, I believe a step up would be gained by going with some of the brands I've worked with in the past, whose gear I have come to have a good deal of respect for:

-Yorkville
-EV
-Yamaha

Probably going to buy used, though, so might be at the mercy of what happens to be out there.

Anything in particular you'd recommend, or suggest to avoid?

Thanks!

CT
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:34 AM   #30
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Out of interest Phil and Chris, why are you opting for passive speakers?
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:21 AM   #31
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I'm not really, Chris started off with a question about amplifier power, I took it from there. I've tried to address the advantages and disadvantages of active v passive in the original entries and in more detail in the column articles. Actives are really convenient and don't need any expertise to match speakers and amps. For plug and play I'd go for a passive desk and active speakers every time but I like playing with different setups (bit sad after 40 years) so I go for separates.

It is certainly something for Chris to think about.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:33 AM   #32
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No worries. I just couldn't wrap my head around all the technical specs so opted for powered speakers all around. I like them alot.

Also beware Chris, once you go subs, you never go back.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:39 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
Hard to rule out Behringer, just based on price, but ideally, I believe a step up would be gained by going with some of the brands I've worked with in the past, whose gear I have come to have a good deal of respect for:

-Yorkville
-EV
-Yamaha

Probably going to buy used, though, so might be at the mercy of what happens to be out there.

Anything in particular you'd recommend, or suggest to avoid?

Thanks!

CT


Hi Chris,
I've had good experiences with Behringer mixers and amps. I've used Behringer EP series amps for 5 years without a hiccup. So have lots of others. Their speakers haven't been so good up to date but I haven't tried the new ones. It is hard to build a speaker to a low budget because there are substantial material costs involved. I'm not saying don't try them but I haven't heard any working well or tried any other than a bass cab (which sounded awful) so I won't recommend them.

Yorkville aren't really available in the UK so no comment.

I'm a Yamaha fan, the consistency across everything they do is a real credit to them. I've two Yammie mixers S112 tops and S118 subs and a Yammie Sax! The Yammie tops have what I think is a great horn driver which gives a bit of mid boost to the vocals that don't sound so good in the studio but really make vocals jump forward in a live venue.

I've also heard great sounds coming out of EV's and JBL's

Here's an article from a sadly defunct UK magazine you might find interesting.

http://www.performing-musician.com/...buyersguide.htm

And here are the speakers they tested

http://www.performing-musician.com/...ide_reviews.htm
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:30 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
Hard to rule out Behringer, just based on price, but ideally, I believe a step up would be gained by going with some of the brands I've worked with in the past, whose gear I have come to have a good deal of respect for:

-Yorkville
-EV
-Yamaha

Probably going to buy used, though, so might be at the mercy of what happens to be out there.

Anything in particular you'd recommend, or suggest to avoid?

Thanks!

CT

Some Behringer equipment is passable, but I would suggest giving their mixers a pass, most have distinct background noise. I have had decent experiences using their "D-Class" powered speakers as fold back monitors.

Yorkville passive and active speakers, especially the NX Series are a solid product for the price. I did find some weirdness at one show with a dead speaker and in the last minute panic fix found out it had an 1141 automotive signal light in the system, not something I carry in my tool box. It was an older speaker cab and this was a one time thing but it caught me off-guard, I have never seen it again in a Yorkville cab.

EVs are basically the cheapest drivers in the cheapest boxes available sold for the most money they can get. EV publishes parametric EQ settings so you can try and make them sound correct rather than designing them correctly in the first place. I was not impressed by their products.

I have no complaints about my Yamaha older generation Concert Club Series S112 and S115 for general PA use. I am also liking the analog MG24/14FX and MG32/14FX mixers even though the built in digital effects are kinda cheesy. All of my Yamaha equipment I have gotten for very little money through upgrade trade-ins (churches seem to be selling off old analogue mixers because the "volunteer" sound guys want to blow the next 10 years budget on double back flip digital boards), bankrupt bands/musicians and estate sales.

For amps, pretty much anything will work, but as Phil pointed out, beware the high number game. I actually use ART Pro Audio SLA-1 and SLA-2 power amps just because the local Long and McQuade has used ones cheap all the time. If you bridge a SLA-2 it is 560 watts RMS Mono. They are also only 1U in a rack but I suggest following proper rack spacing for ventilation around all power amps, they will overheat. ART is closely related to Yorkville as a company. For small rooms the SLA-2 used in stereo would probably be enough power through 8 ohm speakers. Other amps are QSC, Peavey, Crown and Yorkville that I have used and have had good results with.

Just to put this out there, I really have never used a Mackie product that I didn't like including mixers, powered mixers, amps and speakers.

I also use ART Graphic EQs as they are cheap and reliable and have a true by-pass so you don't have to do a speed rewiring of a rack if it craps out. I have also used Behringer, dbx and Peavey EQs with no complaints. I am using these examples as they are more reasonably priced, no reason to go into an Ashley or a Yamaha for a small venue system.

I also like the ART Tube Compressor units to smooth things out a bit. Compressors are often overlooked in small PA systems, but it makes a huge difference in they quality of sound.

If you experience feedback issues (I do a lot of stage sound for live theatre with several zones of mics) the fastest response for least amount if money is some of the Behringer equipment like the Feedback Destroyer Pro FBQ2496. I also run some old parametric EQs (like the Roland E-660) but these can be cumbersome if you don't have a full time sound guy.

My recommendations are always overkill as I subsidize my gear by renting it out (with operator) to other groups and events. This tends to make me cover myself for multiple situations.

People will also tell you the benefits of a digital board which covers off having to buy EQs, compressors, noise gates, six million busses, etc. I would suggest renting one or trying one out in a venue before making a purchasing decision. They are nice in a small studio or with a single performer/band but if you try to make changes to settings live or set up for a different show there are some drawbacks. I do like the feature where you can save the show settings and recall them again for use at a later date. One artist I worked for who played exclusively at small venues actually had each venue saved in the board so you could recall it the next time he played there. During a live show drilling down menus is a pita to change a setting. I have used everything from a PreSonus 24.4.2 to a Digico SD9 and they were nice and extremely versatile, but I also found myself mid show looking through the 110 page manuals on my iPad trying to find out how to use a feature. Maybe I am just too old to figure it out.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:28 AM   #35
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Hmmm.... thanks for the continued feedback. It's very helpful.

I simply never mentioned active speakers because I've only ever used passive systems. Any rehearsal space, or any time I've rented a PA, it has always been passive.

Not at all to suggest that I only want that because it's all I ever have and all I ever will use... just habit is a hard way of thinking to break.

Active speakers would mean less fuss and muss both in set up/tear down, and in storing stuff even too.

Now, just thinking....

Would I be correct in suggesting that, by going with active speakers, that would be fine for the mains, but I'd still need to get a separate power amp for a set of monitors?

And, going with active speakers, how easy is it to add a sub to a pair of them if desired? Is there just a plug in the back with an automatic crossover or something?

Thanks!

My personal experience with Behringer has been mostly favourable. I've owned a few of their things, and even still have some of them. I've recently just re-incorporated my X-Vamp back into my live rig for the FX loop. That said, it is a brand that I associate with, "Good to get you going, but expect to grow out of it eventually."

Quintex - surprised at your comments about EV. Keep in mind that I really haven't "followed" PA gear in probably about 20 years, but one of the speakers I was ever most impressed with was a pair of EV's. I couldn't believe how much sound - and good sound - came out of such a small pair of cabinets. Good to hear feedback on the ART stuff.

CT
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Quote:
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Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:45 AM   #36
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^^^ I can comment on the powered speakers that I own.

1. Do I need a separate power amp for the foldbacks?

I have powered speakers for my foldbacks, so no. But if you had passive speakers for the foldbacks, yes you would. Pretty straightforward.

2. How easy is it to add a sub?

My subs are powered. Basically the mix goes into the input of the sub, and the sub output goes to the FOH. The FOH speakers have a switch on the back stating "with sub/full range" and you just choose whatever you want. Obviously the "with sub" setting cuts a lot of the lower frequencies from the FOH and boom you have the crossover.

That comes with certain provisos though. Firstly not all powered speakers come with the "with sub/full range" switch so a crossover would be required straight from the mix. Secondly my powered FOH and subs were designed to work with eachother so if I swapped in a sub of a different brand or model there may be some funky frequency stuff happening if I left them to their own accords, so a crossover would be "safe".

But I'm sure someone can explain how I'm wrong. I'm really still learning all this stuff.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:23 AM   #37
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Welcome aboard Quintex,


The auto bulbs are used to protect the speakers, which you probably know. When the power gets above a certain level they heat and light up and their resistance increases reducing the power to the speakers and sometimes scaring the poor owner as his cab emanates a ghostly glow. Eminence use them in their crossovers and describe them as a 'fuse'. I'm also surprised at what you said about EV as i've had good experiences though I've noticed they have recently become more affordable which might be significant. The Behringer mixer I used wasn't too noisy for live work but I guess if you used it for recording that might be an issue. I'd agree about the Mackies too, over here they are pretty much a go to for people as powered tops. The RCF's sound wonderful too but are very pricey.

Just bought a Yamaha MG166 for my pub band to save size weight and improve the sound. Which it does. Really clean mic pre-amps on it.

Adding an active sub or two should be straightforward. Some have built in crossovers and all tops will be happy enough with 100-150Hz crossovers which is where most of them sit. The biggest problem matching speakers is sensitivity but as subs have their own amp this problem is avoided pretty much. If you have an external crossover then you can usually switch out anything internal. Obviously manufacturers want you to use their subs and it can save some fiddling but it isn't crucial, you just need to understand what your crossovers are doing to see if you can match two different brands.

I'd always go for active monitors if I have a choice. Being able to reach the volume control mid gig is a real advantage and they are right next to the power you are using on-stage so the extra mains lead isn't usually a problem.
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:36 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
Hmmm.... thanks for the continued feedback. It's very helpful.

I simply never mentioned active speakers because I've only ever used passive systems. Any rehearsal space, or any time I've rented a PA, it has always been passive.

Not at all to suggest that I only want that because it's all I ever have and all I ever will use... just habit is a hard way of thinking to break.

Active speakers would mean less fuss and muss both in set up/tear down, and in storing stuff even too.

Now, just thinking....

Would I be correct in suggesting that, by going with active speakers, that would be fine for the mains, but I'd still need to get a separate power amp for a set of monitors?

And, going with active speakers, how easy is it to add a sub to a pair of them if desired? Is there just a plug in the back with an automatic crossover or something?

Thanks!

For smaller shows I use powered speakers for convenience and transport. I can haul gear for a show in my small hatchback rather than starting up one of the 18litre/100km gas pig vans. Two FoH, two monitors, small format board, 6U outboard gear rack (usually optional), couple of Furman EFI/RFI/Surge protectors, mic case, cable box and mic stands. In small venues I find subs tend to be over the top for a lot of genres. However, I use powered subs everywhere, it just saves me dedicating an amp. My larger format boards have adjustable low pass in mono for the subs which is convenient. For other applications Alan has got it pretty much covered in his post above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
My personal experience with Behringer has been mostly favourable. I've owned a few of their things, and even still have some of them. I've recently just re-incorporated my X-Vamp back into my live rig for the FX loop. That said, it is a brand that I associate with, "Good to get you going, but expect to grow out of it eventually."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Starr
The Behringer mixer I used wasn't too noisy for live work but I guess if you used it for recording that might be an issue.

I actually have a lot of Behringer gear in inventory, but I steer away from using them in locations where the younger "artists" are renting them, then we pull out the stuff their heroes use. Brand name requirements fade as one gets old and fiscal responsibility and value for dollar takes over.

For lower volume shows you will see me with Behringer mixers where the noise is not very noticible. These would be in small pubs, lecture circuit and corporate gigs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
Quintex - surprised at your comments about EV. Keep in mind that I really haven't "followed" PA gear in probably about 20 years, but one of the speakers I was ever most impressed with was a pair of EV's. I couldn't believe how much sound - and good sound - came out of such a small pair of cabinets. Good to hear feedback on the ART stuff.

CT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Starr
I'm also surprised at what you said about EV as i've had good experiences though I've noticed they have recently become more affordable which might be significant.

I am probably jaded against them. Everywhere there are EVs are generally high budget installs where the client is relying on a consultant or staff member to make the decisions. I see them in schools, municipal run art centres, churches, etc where the money people have no real idea what they should be paying. They have great sounding gear, but a lot of useless features like LCD VU meters and buttons that select "signal type" on powered units just add to the cost with no practical value. Almost all EV gear in my opinion can be replaced by a more cost effective solution. You don't need to buy a Porsche to go buy groceries, but damn you look good when you do..
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:33 AM   #39
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Just thought I'd do an update on Mics. Our vocalist's husband bought her a mic for her birthday, she still doesn't know so, if you know me don't tell her.

Anyway he came to me for advice and I started doing lots of research, he also wanted to spend more than I'd ever dream of spending so a lot of the condenser mics designed for live work came into the reckoning.

I started off looking into dynamic mics though and came up with these. I'll start off by saying that we were looking for something at least one step up from an SM57 or 58

Audix OM5, OM7
Sennheiser E945
AKG D7
Shure Beta57
Electrovoice ND967

These are all top quality dynamics, if you want top feedback rejection then go for the OM7 or the Electrovoice mics, but be aware that you need to be right on top of the mics, like right up close, even touching the mics and no more than a finger away. They are nearly all supercardioids at this level so you also need to sing exactly in line with the mic and not into the side as you sometimes see people doing with cardioids like the SM58.

there's a really helpful video for this where Dave Rat does some good demos on vocal mics


I centred in on the Audix OM5 and the Beta57 because our vocalist won't get up close and personal with the mic, She doesn't always hold it straight and tends to adopt a three fingers distance which these two are more tolerant of.

It immediately became clear that we were looking for something even 'better' than these excellent fabulous bits of kit so we went to look at condensers. to cut a long story short I ended up recommending the Shure Beta 87 which comes in several variants the 87A which is super cardioid and the 87C which is cardioid. Have no doubts at all condensers are better sounding mics than dynamics, much more open and natural sounding. Every mistake is going to be heard, as is all your vocal loveliness! By repute condensers are more prone to feedback (they have better top response so this isn't a surprise) and are more fragile. though recent models are a lot more robust so this reputation for fragility isn't really so much of an issue. The Shure is used by hire companies and for touring all round the world so that's why I plumped for it, you want to recommend something reliable if it is someone else's money.

So what did he go for? The Shure KSM9, Shure's top condenser 450!! I noticed on all the live video's people mainly use the Beta87 (200ish) for top acts. This mic is so much better than our good quality Yamaha PA. the 87 would embarrass it this thing is going to be great but we won't hear the best of it.

If I was a singer I'd probably go for the 87 though. The thought that for 200 I could have one of the best mic's in the world something equivalent to a custom shop Strat, well that is a bargain!

The only thing we did wrong? If you are buying try the mic out, I got all sorts of recommendations and all of the dynamics I list are brilliant, the one to choose is the one that suits your voice and no-one can advise you that over the internet.

Our money is spent but i'd like to hear about your favourite mic, or ones that just don't work for you.
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:28 AM   #40
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My band for a singing lead who plays guitar and a sing drummer and me who will sing and play bass all use the sennheiser e935's which are great microphones. They have great response and are a pretty hot mic which is great because I don't have to be straight on top on the mic to get good volume. I will often use our bands mics at a venue if their backline doesn't have decent mics.
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