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Old 03-06-2013, 11:53 AM   #1
shabtronic
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Gilbert riff - need help

Hi All

I'm trying to learn the classic paul gilbert lick - and having major trouble with the timings - wondering if anyone has any tricks to keep it in 16th notes timings and not triplet timings.


-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
---5-------------5-6-8----------------------------------------
-----8-6-5-6-8---------5-6-8---------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------


I can play it at light speed as triplets - but the problem is - triplets seems to introduce a tiny gap at the string crossings and mess up the timing. So i'm playing it with 16th note timings and that gets rid of any gap, and the timing is then perfect - but it's major difficult to stay in that timing. Wondering if there are any tricks to do this easily?

thanks

Shabby
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:16 PM   #2
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Honestly, you're just going to have to count it.

1-e-and-uh 2-e-and-uh 3-e-and-uh, you get the idea.

Also, it's clichéd, but using a metronome really helps, especially if it has 16th note subdivision.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:23 PM   #3
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Yeah - I tried that

"1-&-2" for triplets
"Tik-a-Tak-a" for 16ths
"neu-ro-log-i-cal" for quintuplets

that's a really great technique, but I ate my tongue at high speed - sounds like hard graft with a metronome is the only solution, if there was a magic trick to enforce 16ths.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:31 PM   #4
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:49 PM   #5
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There's a few things to say here:

1 - If playing in a triplet time frame is introducing gaps then you're not doing it right. It should be smooth and seemless at any pace and in any time.

2 - No, there are no tricks.

3 - That lick is more naturally phrased as triplets because it contains 12 notes and the more traditional accents fall on the third notes. Try playing it in 16ths over a metronome set to 3/4 maybe but even then the accents will fall strangely. Good practice but not really helpful if you're having trouble phrasing in 16ths to begin with.
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
There's a few things to say here:

1 - If playing in a triplet time frame is introducing gaps then you're not doing it right. It should be smooth and seemless at any pace and in any time.

2 - No, there are no tricks.

3 - That lick is more naturally phrased as triplets because it contains 12 notes and the more traditional accents fall on the third notes. Try playing it in 16ths over a metronome set to 3/4 maybe but even then the accents will fall strangely. Good practice but not really helpful if you're having trouble phrasing in 16ths to begin with.


I disagree with the "naturally phrased as triplets" - I've heard a few people try to play it as triplets and it just sounds wrong ( because of the gaps that get introduced automatically because they are sync'd with the accents. I think it's a key point in gilbert's playing and why his playing is so accurate - and it's also why it's so difficult for everyone else to get that timing down.

one trick that I've come up with is to practise these patterns, and that helps force my timing into 16th notes:


----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
---8-6-5---------5-6------------------
----------8-6- 8-----------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------


----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
---5-6-5-------------------------------
----------8-6-5 6 8--------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

this is really starting to work out for me after 2 days so far - I can play Burt's riff upto 12 notes per second in 16th notes - above that it merges back into triplet timing - so I'll carry
and see what happens :P One thing I have noticed is now my 3 notes per string scale runs - played in 16th note patterns also sound awesome - I think i had the same "gap" problem - because of the accent syncing.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:08 AM   #7
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What is this gap thing? Each of the notes should be of the same lenght and evenly spaced, no matter whether you are playing 16th notes or triplets. Just go back to a speed where you can control your playing and make sure you dont rush any of the notes.

Also, are you using alternate picking or economy?
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:46 AM   #8
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The gap thing is something I recently discovered on analyzing my playing without ego being involved :P. It happens when the string change gap is in sync with the accents for example with the classic:

-13-12-10------------------------------------------------------------
------------13-12-10-------------------------------------------------
------------------------12-10-9--------------------------------------
-----------------------------------12-10-9----------------------------
----------------------------------------------12-10-8-----------------
-------------------------------------------------------12-10-8--------

what I found happens is - when playing without a metronome - in triplet timing - it all sounds fluid and correct - but on closer inspection there is a timing gap when changing strings:

13 12 10 g
12 12 10 g
12 10 9 g
12 10 9 g
12 10 8 g
12 10 8 g

I picked this up from years of doing 3 note runs in triplet phrasing without a metronome - and was really shocked when I discovered it. You can't actually hear it when you are playing it - it all sounds correct. The gap is not audio silence - it's just the last note extended. I think it becomes invisible to your hearing because they are all in sync.

I'm playing strict alternate picking - outside picking of course

My recent discovery from burts riff - is if I play it in 16th note timing - the gap goes away - because it is no longer "invisible", you can hear it because it's no longer in sync with the accents. My timing has gone thru the roof because of this - I'm actually avoiding any kind of triplet timing on 3 note runs. Another side effect is everything sounds a lot more musical suddenly - I think that's linked to correct timing. The moral of this story is don't play triplets on 3 notes per string without a metronome :P
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Old 03-07-2013, 05:27 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shabtronic
I disagree with the "naturally phrased as triplets" - I've heard a few people try to play it as triplets and it just sounds wrong ( because of the gaps that get introduced automatically because they are sync'd with the accents. I think it's a key point in gilbert's playing and why his playing is so accurate - and it's also why it's so difficult for everyone else to get that timing down.


It's naturally phrased as triplets because it breaks in to groups of three notes at the most natural points:

Code:
-5----- ---8-6- ------- -5-6-8- -8-6-5- ------- ------- -8-6-5-


And again, if there are gaps then you're doing it wrong. The timing shouldn't introduce anything of the sort. What I'm saying is that you might think you're blazing through it at higher speeds but if the timing is at all wrong then you're not doing it right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabtronic
one trick that I've come up with is to practise these patterns, and that helps force my timing into 16th notes:


----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
---8-6-5---------5-6------------------
----------8-6- 8-----------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------


----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
---5-6-5-------------------------------
----------8-6-5 6 8--------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------

this is really starting to work out for me after 2 days so far - I can play Burt's riff upto 12 notes per second in 16th notes - above that it merges back into triplet timing - so I'll carry on and see what happens :P One thing I have noticed is now my 3 notes per string scale runs - played in 16th note patterns also sound awesome - I think i had the same "gap" problem - because of the accent syncing.


Well those are different patterns of 8 notes each, you're not practicing the same pattern in 16ths at all, of course it's easier to get these in to 16ths.


You know what, I don't even know why you're here; sounds like you don't actually want any help at all.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:14 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
It's naturally phrased as triplets because it breaks in to groups of three notes at the most natural points:

Code:
-5----- ---8-6- ------- -5-6-8- -8-6-5- ------- ------- -8-6-5-


And again, if there are gaps then you're doing it wrong. The timing shouldn't introduce anything of the sort. What I'm saying is that you might think you're blazing through it at higher speeds but if the timing is at all wrong then you're not doing it right.



Well those are different patterns of 8 notes each, you're not practicing the same pattern in 16ths at all, of course it's easier to get these in to 16ths.


You know what, I don't even know why you're here; sounds like you don't actually want any help at all.



Steady on there Zaphod - I wasn't personally attacking you when I said I didn't agree with what you wrote. In my experience over the last 20 years - I have personally heard 5 different people try to play that riff, all pretty good guitarists - and they all started to learn it as triplets and none of them sounded anything like gilberts phrasing. I myself have also learnt it - maybe 10 years ago as triplets and could not play it like bert no matter how much practice I put in. This new discovery I have found and are sharing with this forum - is very close to burts phrasing, it's a very ambiguous riff - it can be played as triplets or as 16th notes since both timings divide the note set equally. And as I wrote above those other two patterns - which as you point out are different - after playing for a few mins put me into 16th mode timing - once in that mode - I can play the riff as 16th notes. it's way for me to "erase" the triplet feel I learnt over the past 10 years. You can understand that right?

If you can show me somebody who has learnt that riff slowly as triplets and play it at high speed correctly - I'll be really impressed, but for me that just doesnt work - just sharing the things I've found.
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:18 AM   #11
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Honestly though - there shouldn't be any gaps, triplets or not. That's pretty much the point of practising this kind of lick - to make string crossing as precise and quick as single string stuff.

If you want tips for making it into 16ths -

1) Try starting with picking 16ths to the metronome just on the first note or deadened strings, then introduce the rest of the lick.

2) Try and make sure you really exaggerate your accents. In 16ths they will always fall on every other downstroke so that can really help keep your playing tight.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freepower
Honestly though - there shouldn't be any gaps, triplets or not. That's pretty much the point of practising this kind of lick - to make string crossing as precise and quick as single string stuff.

If you want tips for making it into 16ths -

1) Try starting with picking 16ths to the metronome just on the first note or deadened strings, then introduce the rest of the lick.

2) Try and make sure you really exaggerate your accents. In 16ths they will always fall on every other downstroke so that can really help keep your playing tight.



Totally - there should be no gaps - but they are there from years of practicing triplets without a metronome. I've been practicing it now for 3 days or so and - as suggested a metronome really helps - so does starting the riff from the middle note and descending. I'm practicing at around 7nps and it's really started to come together - even at that low speed with 16th notes you have to be really accurate and it tightens up everything else. When I go to around 10-12nps it turns back in a triplet riff - but now it just sounds really really good and tight. I think the 16th note thing really helps out - since you can hear if the timing is wrong right away - where as with triplet notes and the gap phenomena, it hides any timing issues (without a metronome). I did try exaggerating the accents - but they fall in such wierd places in 16ths - it's a little tricky but I think that will come with time.

I'm finding this a great way to practice stuff without a metronome - I now realise that's a bad thing to do - but sometime, gnome is not nearby or just don't feel like it :P and I find that I'm at different speeds throughout the day and resyncing to the gnome is a real pain

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Old 03-08-2013, 05:27 PM   #13
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I think this is just a bad lick to practice as 16th notes due to odd accents and the fact that you played/heard it played as triplets thousands of times doesnt help either.

If you want to practice 16th notes why dont you try "The curse of castle dragon" by Paul Gilbert. There are lots of three notes per strings runs played as 16th notes both ascending and descending, I think thats what you are looking for.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tappooh
I think this is just a bad lick to practice as 16th notes due to odd accents and the fact that you played/heard it played as triplets thousands of times doesnt help either.

If you want to practice 16th notes why dont you try "The curse of castle dragon" by Paul Gilbert. There are lots of three notes per strings runs played as 16th notes both ascending and descending, I think thats what you are looking for.



Absolutely - but for me it's like a miracle - it's fixing all my problems from years of freetime triplet abuse :P . I'm finding that I can suddenly play a lot of things in accurate time that I could not before, I think the biggest stand out thing - is my 3 note scales runs now sound really good and a lot more melodic. I'm also chuffed with the odd accents - it makes everything sound really different - I guess that's what I want as a guitarist - i.e. not a 3 note triplet drone - but a 4 note stand out piece?


I'll check out castle dragon - thanks - so happy with all of this
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Old 03-10-2013, 08:58 PM   #15
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Lol I just don't even worry about the timing and just work on good technique.
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Old 03-10-2013, 09:44 PM   #16
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I would just practice each section at a time...like only do triplets over and over again, not superfast or back to back...then pratice each section of the music till you can combine them.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:06 AM   #17
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Quote:
Absolutely - but for me it's like a miracle - it's fixing all my problems from years of freetime triplet abuse :P . I'm finding that I can suddenly play a lot of things in accurate time that I could not before, I think the biggest stand out thing - is my 3 note scales runs now sound really good and a lot more melodic. I'm also chuffed with the odd accents - it makes everything sound really different - I guess that's what I want as a guitarist - i.e. not a 3 note triplet drone - but a 4 note stand out piece?


Hehe, that sounds great! I would suggest you practice most of your licks in different groupings. Some things sound REALLY cool in a "wrong" grouping. My favourite is playing 5 note groupings in 16ths, I use and abuse that all the time.


Quote:
Lol I just don't even worry about the timing and just work on good technique.


They're kinda related.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:27 AM   #18
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I don't really get why everyone would play it as triplets (as you say they do) if it was 16ths, it's either one or the other. The note value is about the duration of the note relative to the beat, not which note of the pattern is accented. Is this just a general lick you found that's Paul Gilbert-ey or do you have a link to it? It looks like a lick that would be played as sextuplets and chances are, it is. If there's a longer gap between the 3rd note and the 4th note, it's not straight triplets, it's more like some kind of gallop - again, chances are, there shouldn't be a gap.

Having said that, it's good for you to practise stuff that is normally triplets/sextuplets and trying to accent it as 16ths (same goes the other way around), it'll really help with your timing in general. The main tip for doing it really is to play to a metronome, play really slowly, and really, really accent the 1st note for each grouping (so 16ths, ONE e and a TWO e and a, for triplets, ONE and a TWO and a). Or however you choose to count... (TA-ka-di-mi or whatever).

Oh, another thing - you say you're doing it outside picking (as Gilbert suggests for similar patterns I've seen) so I assume you're starting with an upstroke. Which is fine, it's good to practise, but it's worth also trying it inside picking (starting with a downstroke in this case) as I (and many others) find this harder and it does need to be practised.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:36 AM   #19
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I don't really get why everyone would play it as triplets (as you say they do) if it was 16ths, it's either one or the other. The note value is about the duration of the note relative to the beat, not which note of the pattern is accented.


Sure, but some licks more "naturally" fall into certain subdivisions than others. Eg, string crossings often end up being accents, so this lick fits perfectly into triplets. It's not necessarily one way or the other but it's implied to be triplet or sextuplet just the way it's fingered.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:11 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freepower
Sure, but some licks more "naturally" fall into certain subdivisions than others. Eg, string crossings often end up being accents, so this lick fits perfectly into triplets. It's not necessarily one way or the other but it's implied to be triplet or sextuplet just the way it's fingered.

What I meant was, the actual, original lick - it's either 16ths or triplets, and yeah that pattern certainly lends itself to being triplets. But where it's accented does not have to be strictly tied to the note value, it could be 16ths but with the first of every 3 notes accented, or triplets with the first of every 4 if you really wanted. But if you play the lick alongside the original lick, and you're playing 16ths and the original is sextuplets, you're going to go way out of time because 16th notes are slower/last longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shabtronic
I can play it at light speed as triplets - but the problem is - triplets seems to introduce a tiny gap at the string crossings and mess up the timing. So i'm playing it with 16th note timings and that gets rid of any gap, and the timing is then perfect - but it's major difficult to stay in that timing. Wondering if there are any tricks to do this easily?

If you're alternating between the two, and they both fit into the same timeframe, you're not playing triplets, you're probably playing 16ths in a reverse gallop.
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