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Old 03-08-2013, 01:16 PM   #21
crazysam23_Atax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vypor
Maybe some input from somebody that doesn't completely understand would help.

If I say, hey I want to write a song in the key of E. What are my options?

First thing I find is "The key of E is compromised of these notes"

These are the notes of that scale. If you'rd not playing any of these notes, than you're not in said key.

No, think about it this way. The key signature of Emajor contains the notes E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#. The key signature is not the key though. You're not limited to those 7 notes.

For instance, the chords people commonly assign to the key of E are: Emaj, F#min, G#min, Amaj, Bmaj, C#maj, D#dim.

Because of chromatics, we literally can NEVER got out of key. That's why it's perfectly legal to play E7#9 (which contains E, G#, B, & G) in the key of E, for instance. Note that the G note in E7#9 is not in the key signature of E. So, you can pick notes that fit the song rather than be limited to a scale.

Make sense?
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Last edited by crazysam23_Atax : 03-08-2013 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:25 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Note that D#dim contains the notes D#, F, and A. The note F does NOT fit in the key signature of Emajor. But that doesn't mean we're out of key. F acts as a chromatic note in the key of Emajor. Because of chromatics, we literally can NEVER got out of key. So, you can pick notes that fit the song rather than be limited to a scale.

Make sense?

The third in D#dim is F#, not F. And the reason D#dim is commonly used in the first place is because all the notes do fit into the key. Just like all the other ones.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:31 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalcade
The third in D#dim is F#, not F. And the reason D#dim is commonly used in the first place is because all the notes do fit into the key. Just like all the other ones.

Fuck...you're right. But anyway, the point about chromatics is correct. Let me edit the D#dim thing out. Sorry.


Edit:
Ok, I edited it so that it's using E7#9 as a chord example (which is a better example anyway). I don't know how I screwed up the D#dim example. My bad.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:35 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vypor
Maybe some input from somebody that doesn't completely understand would help.

If I say, hey I want to write a song in the key of E. What are my options?

First thing I find is "The key of E is compromised of these notes"

These are the notes of that scale. If your not playing any of these notes, than you not in said key.

Going over this in my head, I guess I really don't understand how keys and scales are any different.

the key of e resolves to e. the scale is made to optimize the relationship to the tonic, but you can do literally anything once that tonic is solidified - even if you specifically had to write in a specific key, it would simply be a matter of making sure there's a subdominant->dominant->tonic relationship wherein E (major, i'm assuming) is the basis.
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Old 03-08-2013, 01:55 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
So, inspired by this article (which basically discusses pentatonic scales and "shifts" and "modal" scales [read: not modal, but tonal since it's using the modes as scales]), I'm wondering why we're (we as a guitar community, I mean) still uphold modes and scales as anything more than a teaching tool. We still have guitar teachers and players who wrongfully insist that way to gain more freedom in the notes you can use is to use different scales. We also have tons of musicians who don't write riffs/songs/motifs in keys but in scales. I'm wondering when the guitar community will wake up and realize that there's a reason why writing in keys is the best option.

It's my belief that, if the guitar community taught some basic music theory (very basic counterpoint, harmony, chord construction, cadences, etc.) and emphasized writing in keys, we'd have less bands running around with uninspired songs that sound exactly like the half the other bands. (Of course, there'd still be band that have uninspired songs trying to cater to the more commercial side, but that just separates out the bands with good songwriting skills all the more.)

So...thoughts? Should the guitar community stop placing so much emphasis on scales/modes? If not, why not?


I don't know about you, but Im an individual not part of some community of guitarists.
I say take the approach you want, make the music you want to make, and stop thinking you know how everyone else should learn, teach or play....that's their choice to make.

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Old 03-08-2013, 02:00 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
Im an individual not part of some community of guitarists.

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If you don't want to learn to improve your musicianship, what are you doing in MT?
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Cavalcade
wegotabadass.jpg
If you don't want to learn to improve your musicianship, what are you doing in MT?


sharing my opinion, and don't be presumptuous..... the reason I posted is because I feel the attitude quoted was detrimental to improving ones musicianship.

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Old 03-08-2013, 02:17 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Hail
you should have fun making and learning music by making and learning music. no matter what you think of me or my opinions, if you don't think learning and creating music is the most important part of music, that technical runs and exercises supersede just enjoying that you have the ability to pick up an instrument and make music that resonates with yourself, that you can emulate your heroes and can have a good time with your friends in a run-down garage, you're missing the point

Never thought I would ever quote Hail, but this is what it is all about.

Having fun may be playing chords off a chart during a drunken sing-a-long at 3am or playing your latest rhapsody to a group of strangers. Lighten up people you are all taking this way too seriously.
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:17 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
sharing my opinion

You can do that without being a dick to someone who's trying to help other people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
the reason I posted is because I feel the attitude quoted was detrimental to improving ones musicianship.

The attitude quoted is to improve one's musicianship. How is improving one's musicianship detrimental to improving one's musicianship?
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Old 03-08-2013, 02:28 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Cavalcade
You can do that without being a dick to someone who's trying to help other people.


Apparently if you disagree with someone, you're being a dick, so no I can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalcade
The attitude quoted is to improve one's musicianship.


I disagree that it will, sorry.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:19 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
I disagree that it will, sorry.

So, you disagree that learning music theory will improve one's musicianship? Ok, then...

Basically, I'm advocating improving one's knowledge of music theory (which includes learning some of the things I posted in the OP, such as: very basic counterpoint, harmony, chord construction, cadences, etc.), because all of that increases one's understanding of music theory (which directly lends it self to using keys rather than using scales or modes or sticking strictly to the notes of the key signature).
Note: music theory acknowledges scales/modes, as most of you know, but the concepts are generally taught within the context of a key, not within the context of a scale. You don't learn about harmony, for instance, in terms of scales. No one says, "This scale and that scale harmonize well together", because we're concerned with keys and harmony with a key, not causing 2 scales to harmonize.


But if you find the idea of learning music theory detrimental to improving one's musicianship, then whatever. I don't quite see how that works, but you're entitled to your opinion, I suppose.
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Last edited by crazysam23_Atax : 03-08-2013 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:24 PM   #32
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you guys act like guitarmunky hasn't been around MT for years

i disagree with him on a lot of things but get off his dick over trivial things, i don't see how anybody on MT would ever put up my personality and not his cause i'm far more abrasive and dickish about what i say. it takes conviction to be that direct and sure of yourself

not that he said anything weird or bad here anyway, he was just disagreeing with a blanket statement from somebody who's using anti-mode/keys as a buzz term to condescend to everybody

(though to be fair GM probably thinks that of me too but still lol)

Last edited by Hail : 03-08-2013 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:28 PM   #33
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To be fair, if I properly understand what guitarmunky is saying, it makes no sense. He may have a great deal of knowledge (I'm unable to judge that because I'm an infrequent user of MT), but he's stating his point in a way that leads me to believe that he doesn't advocate music theory. I'd be willing to grant that he may not be trying to say that, but that what it sounds like to me.

Edit:
guitarmunky, it may help me understand your viewpoint better if you stated why you think my attitude is detrimental to improving one's musicianship. Or is it just my perceived condescending tone* that is bothering you?

*I'm not trying to be condescending, btw.
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Last edited by crazysam23_Atax : 03-08-2013 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:36 PM   #34
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Modes and scales are not the be all and end all of music, statements such as 'ignore modes and scales' however are also detrimental.

It's funny how people with a beginner to intermediate understanding of music hear an advanced poster say a phrase and take it entirely out of context. Resulting in idiotic statements such as 'Scales and modes are useless, don't learn them'.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:40 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
To be fair, if I properly understand what guitarmunky is saying, it makes no sense. He may have a great deal of knowledge (I'm unable to judge that because I'm an infrequent user of MT), but he's stating his point in a way that leads me to believe that he doesn't advocate music theory. I'd be willing to grant that he may not be trying to say that, but that what it sounds like to me.

Edit:
guitarmunky, it may help me understand your viewpoint better if you stated why you think my attitude is detrimental to improving one's musicianship. Or is it just my perceived condescending tone* that is bothering you?

*I'm not trying to be condescending, btw.


I think you're better off focusing on your own approach to guitar, and not trying to determine a path for the guitar"community" as a whole. It's simply more sane and actually attainable.

What's so hard to understand about that?

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Old 03-08-2013, 03:43 PM   #36
crazysam23_Atax
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
I think you're better off focusing on your own approach to guitar, and not trying to determine a path for the guitar"community" as a whole. It's simply more sane and actually attainable.

What's so hard to understand about that?

Oh, ok. Whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffRG7321
Modes and scales are not the be all and end all of music, statements such as 'ignore modes and scales' however are also detrimental.

It's funny how people with a beginner to intermediate understanding of music hear an advanced poster say a phrase and take it entirely out of context. Resulting in idiotic statements such as 'Scales and modes are useless, don't learn them'.

Scales and modes are inferior in comparison to keys, when it comes to composing. I sort of thought that was clear in the OP, since I talked about how we have guitar players who compose using Xscale or Ymode.
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Old 03-08-2013, 03:50 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Oh, ok. Whatever.


Scales and modes are inferior in comparison to keys, when it comes to composing. I sort of thought that was clear in the OP, since I talked about how we have guitar players who compose using Xscale or Ymode.


Musicians have done that for centuries, and not just guitarists. Something you'll have to accept eventually.
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:05 PM   #38
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The way I see it my nigs, just learning how all the notes sound in relation to each other is the best theory that there is.

As a matter of fact, I would say that anyone who takes a different approach is wrong and inferior. Contrary to what you're saying guitarmunky, somethings that work for some people are not as good as the "textbook" way of doing it. I learned this when I was on my middle school basketball team (anecdote coming):

There was this kid who was pretty good at shooting, better than most of us, but the way he shot was weird. He would pull his right arm back behind his head and a parallel to his ear, and fling it in a similar fashion to the way a catapult flings a projectile. The coach taught us the correct way to shoot, and had us run it, but the kid refused to do it because he couldn't do it as well. The rest of us practiced the way our coach told us.
We all got progressively better at shooting, the kid who shot weirdly included. But but the middle of the year, something happened; We were all able to shoot off of a dribble and we were able to shoot without being muffed, while the weird kid could not shoot without getting stuffed half the time. The nature of the way he shot, even though it was good for him, was inferior to the correct way of shooting, which he could have easily mastered had he put his pride and ego aside and just worked at it the right way. Needless to say, he ended up getting benched for most of the season.

I don't see why it would be different with music, or anything in life for that matter. Learning how keys work, learning how all the values of notes sound in a key, and learning functional harmony is simply superior over learning a bunch of scales and modes, and thinking that you need to learn a new one every times you find that you have hit a plateau (in a tonal setting). I think it works like that in everything in life; I truly believe that you can find a correct way to do something. Yes it might be tweaked a little bit depending on the individual, but this might be more of a tweak in the way that it is taught, rather than the values/concepts that are taught.

Get at me.
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:08 PM   #39
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lol keys.
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:14 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by macashmack
I don't see why it would be different with music, or anything in life for that matter. Learning how keys work, learning how all the values of notes sound in a key, and learning functional harmony is simply superior over learning a bunch of scales and modes, and thinking that you need to learn a new one every times you find that you have hit a plateau (in a tonal setting). I think it works like that in everything in life; I truly believe that you can find a correct way to do something. Yes it might be tweaked a little bit depending on the individual, but this might be more of a tweak in the way that it is taught, rather than the values/concepts that are taught.

Exactly.
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