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Old 03-08-2013, 04:24 PM   #41
jrenkert
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The number of songs I have written that I am proud of that were consciously thought out in terms of keys and scales and what not: 0

The number of songs that I've written that I were imagined because they felt right as they were composed: A gillion million billion

Music theory is great for EXPLAINING music and CAN help you in the writing process, but I'd just as soon as trust my ear...
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Old 03-08-2013, 04:36 PM   #42
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I think it's like most things that involve thinking; those who want to learn these things will, those who don't, won't. Playing guitar isn't a compulsory thing, and I can understand why you think everyone should have a moderate understanding of keys/scales etc, but for a lot of people, the thought of learning is both boring and intimidating. Nothing inside guitar is a necessity, and attaching necessity to something "fun" can drain the enjoyment out of it.
I would feel confident saying that, that accounts for about 89% of guitar owners. I do agree, however, that it would be beneficial to have a simple way of explaining and teaching the aforementioned cadences, keys and ways to properly structure songs is a good idea, and would be a benevolent act to the guitarists/musicians that embrace learning.
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:51 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
lol keys.


But how do I baroque music in 2013 without keys?????

Not srs
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:56 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
But how do I baroque music in 2013 without keys?????

Not srs

You make up a ghetto baroque and use chopsticks to baroque music!
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Old 03-08-2013, 05:58 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Actually there are, they're just purposely written in a manner that people aren't used to hearing...but whatever...

But I don't enjoy "art music" or find it to be inherently better than music than, say Mozart or AC/DC or Ne Obliviscaris (or whatever other composer/band you can think of).

I would agree with that, to a point.


Like all art, It all comes down to aesthetics and audience. People are not going to listen to Chopin concertos when bumping it at da club.

I guess I am thinking along the lines of the extreme atonal works where there is absolutely no resolution, no motifs, excessive use of dissonance and tritone. Or any music with little craft to it. I love Sonic Youth's experimentation and how they create tension and resolution through borderline atonality and feedback. Or the use of tritone in some metal songs. Something like Blitzkrieg bop works because it's not just A D E chords, there is rhythm, tone guitars, message to convey, drums, bass, tone of Joey's voice.

Check out Scriabin Vers la Flamme or any other type of work that is borderline tonal. I like that. Or his Op. 74 which is octatonic based and has an interesting harmonic language that takes time to seep in.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:59 PM   #46
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^Will do. Thanks.

I think, for most of us anyway, the thing about atonal music is that we're naturally trained to find tonal music very pleasing. So, atonal music takes some listening training.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:16 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetdude3000
People are not going to listen to Chopin concertos when bumping it at da club.




better than legit chopin but that's not saying much

Last edited by Hail : 03-08-2013 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:49 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Scales and modes are inferior in comparison to keys, when it comes to composing. I sort of thought that was clear in the OP, since I talked about how we have guitar players who compose using Xscale or Ymode.


because composers have never used a particular scale, mode or pitch class as a means of generating basic material for a composition...
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Old 03-08-2013, 08:51 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
because composers have never used a particular scale, mode or pitch class as a means of generating basic material for a composition...

Most serious composers haven't used scales/modes/pitch class as a basis of composition since the 1700s. Granted, I'm not saying all. But I'm fairly certain that the prevailing means of composition is writing in keys.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:12 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Most serious composers haven't used scales/modes/pitch class as a basis of composition since the 1700s. Granted, I'm not saying all. But I'm fairly certain that the prevailing means of composition is writing in keys.


I was thinking more along the lines of 20th and 21st century composers...

For a guitar example... a number of Joe Satriani's pieces/songs arise from modal concepts.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:19 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by griffRG7321
I was thinking more along the lines of 20th and 21st century composers...

For a guitar example... a number of Joe Satriani's pieces/songs arise from modal concepts.

Ah, good example. But Satriani is the exception, not the rule. Also, his compositions are largely completely modal (as opposed to people using the modes tonally by using them as scales).
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:22 PM   #52
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This thread makes me uneasy. I can't put my finger on it, but there's something weird about it.
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Old 03-08-2013, 09:49 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
So, you disagree that learning music theory will improve one's musicianship? Ok, then...



really? you're going to invent my point of view and then argue against your own fabrication?
It's hard to have a conversation with someone when they do that.
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Old 03-08-2013, 10:21 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
You don't learn about harmony, for instance, in terms of scales.

It's pretty common actually. Particularly, in the lesson titled "Harmonizing the Major Scale" or something similar.
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:53 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
This thread makes me uneasy. I can't put my finger on it, but there's something weird about it.


Everything that crazysam posts makes me uneasy, probably because he actually uses his own face as an avatar. I prefer my UG users to be unidentifiable except by an abstract picture or celebrity face so that I don't feel any human connection while I'm ripping into them.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:52 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Ah, good example. But Satriani is the exception, not the rule. Also, his compositions are largely completely modal (as opposed to people using the modes tonally by using them as scales).


Admittedly I'm not completely familiar with Satrianis work, but nothing Ive heard of his is modal. Do you have any examples to shoot me down?
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:44 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by AlanHB
Admittedly I'm not completely familiar with Satrianis work, but nothing Ive heard of his is modal. Do you have any examples to shoot me down?


his big thing was pitch axis theory but i think he does have a few drone songs, none off the top of my head because he's an incredibly boring player and composer to me

him and steve vai and all them feel so "fashion over substance" that i have trouble taking them seriously, but that's just how i've always interpreted that realm of guitars so flameshield->on
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:37 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by AlanHB
Admittedly I'm not completely familiar with Satrianis work, but nothing Ive heard of his is modal. Do you have any examples to shoot me down?


Off the top of my head, the main theme of 'Lords of Karma' is based on the interchange between Lydian and Mixolydian modes. The underlying chord progression is Amaj#11 - A13. I'm not as solid (or at least, not as confident that I'm solid) on theory as most of the regulars here but this seems to be a pretty definite case of modal thinking being applied where similar results would be difficult to achieve with another method.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
him and steve vai and all them feel so "fashion over substance" that i have trouble taking them seriously,


Satch's style is pretty different from Vai's. I mean, they both embody the '80's guitar hero' role to an extent, but Satch's playing, at least on Surfing with the Alien, was melodic and, at least to me, highly memorable.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:53 AM   #59
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Whether Satriani's work is modal or not isn't of any relevance, what matters is that modal concepts were part of his compositional process. Analyse the intro to 'Not of This Earth' as "E major with a #4 accidental then E minor then E major with a b7 accidental" and you're missing the point.
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Old 03-09-2013, 12:41 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by AlanHB
Admittedly I'm not completely familiar with Satrianis work, but nothing Ive heard of his is modal. Do you have any examples to shoot me down?

Well, I guess I shouldn't have said completely modal. But he did a lot of work with pitch axis theory. A lot of his songs rhythmically revolve around modal 2-chord vamps as well, iirc.

I'm more familiar with Vai than Satch. But I do know Satch's work used to involve a fair amount of modal concepts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffRG7321
Whether Satriani's work is modal or not isn't of any relevance, what matters is that modal concepts were part of his compositional process. Analyse the intro to 'Not of This Earth' as "E major with a #4 accidental then E minor then E major with a b7 accidental" and you're missing the point.

Yes, but as I said, he's rather the exception to the rule. I would say at least 85% of modern composers (ranging in style from pop songs for the radio to obscure metal bands*) write in keys.


*Although, some of the less talented metal bands write in terms of random scales and random chords. The better talented ones tend to write in key and are very good at reprising things (or doing theme A, then theme A1, then theme B, theme B1, etc.; where theme B & B1 might be in a related key [a key that shares some of the same notes in its key signature] to A & A1).
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