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Old 03-11-2013, 02:41 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by fwatt
As someone with pretty weak theory knowledge myself, what would you recommend someone in my position to do this way as opposed to learning scales etc?

I've pretty much got the "memorizing notes on the fretboard" shtick down, what would you say is next? To this point, I've probably learned as "scale shapes", "chord shapes", etc/


learn music

like, actual songs. by ear.

learn as much as you like alongside that, scales, chord construction, whatever, but you need to have music in context exposed to you. in a classroom, you might run up and down scales before every class and do rudiments, but you're never going to be sitting there playing those all class. you sit and work on actual music, and that's where the brunt of your knowledge and experience will be derived.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:36 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by 20Tigers
I just don't get the whole polarising attitude as if one is better than the other, as though scales and keys present different approaches to music. In my opinion it just shows a lack of understanding about what these things are and their place in music and music theory.

The "music police" here at UG, would rather teach exceptions than the actual rules themselves.

When somebody asks a rather basic question, all they get is a lot of discord and advanced concepts at the conservatory level.

I can imagine a kid who just wants to learn to play the guitar running into this pack of wolves at the local music store. Instead of showing him the basic open chords, a couple of major key scales, and how a triad is formed, they'd likely start spouting a bunch of shit with no rhyme or reason about how "you can use any note you want, and "XXX" composer used chromatic tones in his or her most annoying and inaccessible piece". Like Keith Emerson playing Ginastera's "Toccata". I always rerecord ELP's "Brain Salad Surgery" CD, to get rid of it.

Reba McEntire came on stage at the Grammys and said, "they say country music is three chords and the truth". Which goes to illustrate that a song doesn't have to be complex to resonate with a multitude of people.

I wonder sometimes if the "musical effete" doesn't talk down to people here, and derive a sense of self satisfaction by virtue of being able to do so.

The most honest replies I've seen here are based on this, "go learn theory someplace else kid, then come back so we can f*** with you some more".

In any event, I feel that it should be illegal to attempt leaning any musical instrument, before familiarizing oneself with the piano.

The keyboard presents such a graphic representation of music's linearity and repetitive nature, it forces you to learn scale and chord relationships. That, as opposed to the guitar encampment, which seems to feels that shapes are all one needs, and nurtures a sense of entitlement to a musical notation of its own. "Tabs".

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Old 03-11-2013, 04:02 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Captaincranky
The "music police" here at UG, would rather teach exceptions than the actual rules themselves.

Did you read Hail's reply up there? Because those are the kind of honest replies that are given to people who admit they're noobs. A lot of the type of threads you're talking about are either similar to mine, or they're correcting some idiot who thinks he's "all that" because he got modes or some other concept that is "hard".
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:18 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Did you read Hail's reply up there? Because those are the kind of honest replies that are given to people who admit they're noobs. A lot of the type of threads you're talking about are either similar to mine, or they're correcting some idiot who thinks he's "all that" because he got modes or some other concept that is "hard".
I've read all too many of Hail's responses, and "watched them being made into movies", thank you very much.

I also wrote this, which was in response to the original question, "OP" if you will.

Quote:
A great number of beginning players come to UG with the idea they can "selectively learn music", to the end of being a rock star. Or least that's how they envision themselves. Ignoring what they couldn't be bothered with, while asking, "how long will it take me to be able to shred".

So, do I have to learn theory? Why bother with theory? I want to start using modes. How much do I really need to practice? I don't need to learn to read music do I? Because I don't want to bother.

In short, many players fail themselves by lacking the initiative, the willingness to put in the necessary effort, and preemptively thinking they know more than the people they're asking their questions.

So, why blame this on the musical community at large. It's really a lot of players failing on their own, despite the best intentions and interventions of said musical community.


Now here's your OP:
Quote:
It's my belief that, if the guitar community taught some basic music theory (very basic counterpoint, harmony, chord construction, cadences, etc.) and emphasized writing in keys, we'd have less bands running around with uninspired songs that sound exactly like the half the other bands. (Of course, there'd still be band that have uninspired songs trying to cater to the more commercial side, but that just separates out the bands with good songwriting skills all the more.)

So...thoughts? Should the guitar community stop placing so much emphasis on scales/modes? If not, why not?
I fail to see where Hail's responses have anything to do with my direct response to you. Which BTW, have you read?

In any case, I fail to see where the forensic venue of a forum, bears the responsibility of an overall crash course in music theory on a thread by thread basis.

Or for that matter, why this topic is anything new, or merely an effete, elitist,"new take" on trolling an old and oft repeated topic.

So, if you think the "community" is failing beginners, then read up my other earlier post which said something of the effect of, "someone should write a book on music theory , save it to a text file, then copy and paste it into a theory thread at the first sign of trouble".

Are you up for this task?

Last edited by Captaincranky : 03-11-2013 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:48 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
The "music police" here at UG, would rather teach exceptions than the actual rules themselves.

When somebody asks a rather basic question, all they get is a lot of discord and advanced concepts at the conservatory level.

I can imagine a kid who just wants to learn to play the guitar running into this pack of wolves at the local music store. Instead of showing him the basic open chords, a couple of major key scales, and how a triad is formed, they'd likely start spouting a bunch of shit with no rhyme or reason about how "you can use any note you want, and "XXX" composer used chromatic tones in his or her most annoying and inaccessible piece". Like Keith Emerson playing Ginastera's "Toccata". I always rerecord ELP's "Brain Salad Surgery" CD, to get rid of it.

Reba McEntire came on stage at the Grammys and said, "they say country music is three chords and the truth". Which goes to illustrate that a song doesn't have to be complex to resonate with a multitude of people.

I wonder sometimes if the "musical effete" doesn't talk down to people here, and derive a sense of self satisfaction by virtue of being able to do so.

The most honest replies I've seen here are based on this, "go learn theory someplace else kid, then come back so we can f*** with you some more".

In any event, I feel that it should be illegal to attempt leaning any musical instrument, before familiarizing oneself with the piano.

The keyboard presents such a graphic representation of music's linearity and repetitive nature, it forces you to learn scale and chord relationships. That, as opposed to the guitar encampment, which seems to feels that shapes are all one needs, and nurtures a sense of entitlement to a musical notation of its own. "Tabs".

Yeah, I think the problem with guitar is that it's kind of too "visual" instrument. You rely on what you see, not what you hear. You look at your fingers and play the positions you have learned but don't necessarily listen to the sounds. Very few instruments have scale positions because in most instruments there's only one way to play a note. Also on guitar it's easier to read tabs than standard notation. On other instruments you automatically learn the note names because there are no tabs and if you want to learn some music (other than learning by ear), you need to learn how to read sheet music and learn the note names. On guitar you don't. You learn the fret numbers and positions.

So I think the problem with guitar is not the scales but the scale shapes. People rely on them when they play and can't "break out of the boxes". Scales can be used to help playing what you hear in your head. It's easier to coordinate where you are going on the fretboard if you know scales. Of course it's the best if you know scales and intervals and note names and can use accidentals. You know which scale degree you are playing and you know how different scale degrees sound.

I don't see scales as an evil thing but my playing sounds better when I don't think too much in scales and try to listen to what I hear and try to play it. When I'm thinking "now I play this scale", my autopilot mode turns on.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:18 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Captaincranky
So, if you think the "community" is failing beginners, then read up my other earlier post which said something of the effect of, "someone should write a book on music theory , save it to a text file, then copy and paste it into a theory thread at the first sign of trouble".

I think you misunderstand my use of the term "community" or "guitar community". As I implied in the OP, the problem is an attitude.

As Maggara said, the guitar is a visual instrument.

We have guitar teachers who teach box shapes and seriously consider that as a valid and useful form of teaching. Why is that a good thing? Is it not better to view the instrument "outside the box", so to speak? Guitar seems, to me, to be the only instrument where we can divide up the instrument into various shapes.
Of course, part of the issue with guitar is that it largely was (from the late 1890s to the early 1910s) something that blues musicians used. And the very early blues (and proto-blues) guitar players did not have as much music training. Things like guitar tabs are a natural evolution of these early blues guitar players exchanging musical ideas in a non-formal manner.

My whole point is, we need to stop treating the guitar as some sort of informal instrument. When it comes to piano, you learn the notes. You may be taught that certain notes are the "notes of the major scale". But, because the piano doesn't lend itself to box shapes similar to that of the guitar, you are only taught that as a teaching tool. It's not a practical application to piano.
We need to stop considering such things as box shapes, scales (outside of the concept of keys), and modes are something every guitar player needs to learn. Rather, a holistic view of music needs to be applied to guitar.

It's really a failing of the guitar community that very few guitar players can read sheet music, for instance. If we instead taught every guitar players sheet music from the get-go, then it would naturally lead to many of the other ideas that I suggested in the OP.
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:25 PM   #87
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How would learning to read sheet music help with anything?

Have you ever heard a classically trained X instrument player try to improvise? Yuck.

Btw I'd take that "experiment" track out of your sound cloud. Lez be honest, no one is going to take you seriously after listening to that.
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:33 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by ouchies
How would learning to read sheet music help with anything?
I would rather have a "fake book" than a tab. I normally don't bother with tabs. With a fake book, you have the melody line at your disposal. You don't have to pick it off the record. You can use it to, embellish as a solo, or enable you to work the melody's timing and passing notes into your chordal accompaniment. So, a "fake book", or an "easy guitar book", can be just as valuable as tablature, without a person having to go to a musical conservatory and learning to read a half dozen lines all at once.
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Originally Posted by ouchies
Have you ever heard a classically trained X instrument player try to improvise? Yuck.
The women of "bond" seemed to be fairly adequate it it. Although TBH, I'm usually more interested in their a**es. (They can't sing worth a shit though).
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Originally Posted by ouchies
Btw I'd take that "experiment" track out of your sound cloud. Lez be honest, no one is going to take you seriously after listening to that.
No frame of reference, so no comment.

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Old 03-11-2013, 07:38 PM   #89
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Back to square one.
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/24

Keys are based off scales. Anything used outside of that is an accidental.

Modes are often used in composition, however, they don't HAVE to be used in composition. The most practical use of modes is to academically refer to a set of notes in a certain order.

This is the only post I will make in this thread.
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:49 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Angusman60
Back to square one.
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/24

Keys are based off scales. Anything used outside of that is an accidental.

Modes are often used in composition, however, they don't HAVE to be used in composition. The most practical use of modes is to academically refer to a set of notes in a certain order.

This is the only post I will make in this thread.
From a practical standpoint, this is so very true for this reason; "if you don't know what the rules are, how can you know if you're breaking them, or when, where, and how, to break them tastefully, to both your, and your audience's advantage".
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:07 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by ouchies
How would learning to read sheet music help with anything?

Oh, I don't know, because then maybe you would actually be able to use the same system that all the other musicians use (including, btw, many classical guitarists).

Quote:
Have you ever heard a classically trained X instrument player try to improvise? Yuck.

Ever heard a jazz musician improvise? All of them can read sheet music. And many of them are good at improv.

Quote:
Btw I'd take that "experiment" track out of your sound cloud. Lez be honest, no one is going to take you seriously after listening to that.

That is an experiment in recording. It's public so that the guys in the recording forum could tell me how to improve my mix. But I guess you already knew that, huh? And therefore, you're fully able to judge me based upon a VERY basic recorded track that's less than 30 seconds and done for the purposes of working on my mixing skills, right? Apparently, I need to make it private again, so that judgemental people like yourself who disagree with me don't fling mud my way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
No frame of reference, so no comment.

Thank you for your courtesy in that, even if you've somewhat disagreed with me in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
From a practical standpoint, this is so very true for this reason; "if you don't know what the rules are, how can you know if you're breaking them, or when, where, and how, to break them tastefully, to both your, and your audience's advantage".

Exactly. This, when it comes to music, basically is one of the sayings I agree with and have zero reservations about. And I think it's safe to say that most other serious musicians also would agree with such a statement. The caveat is, if you don't know the rules, then...well, how are you going to break them tastefully?
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:48 PM   #92
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Keys are based off scales. Anything used outside of that is an accidental.

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Old 03-11-2013, 10:47 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Oh, I don't know, because then maybe you would actually be able to use the same system that all the other musicians use (including, btw, many classical guitarists).


What system is this? Because I'm pretty sure sound has sounded the same forever. Being able to read music is important. But not the be all end all. Music is a language of sound, don't forget that. For the record I can read music, not exceptionally well, but I barely ever have to read music and I make a decent amount of money from playing music part time. Then again I'm not a composer, I'm a guitar player.

Ever heard a jazz musician improvise? All of them can read sheet music. And many of them are good at improv.

I know so many Jazz musicians who suck at reading music. They're so bad that they learn songs faster by ear then through reading. But in my opinion the fact that jazz musicians are excellent at improv has nothing to do with their ability to read music, but rather is a function of the amount of time they dedicate to improvising. Talk to any jazz player, and they will tell you they don't think about anything relating to sheet music when they are improvising. I honestly don't know how you could. Explain more please.


That is an experiment in recording. It's public so that the guys in the recording forum could tell me how to improve my mix. But I guess you already knew that, huh? And therefore, you're fully able to judge me based upon a VERY basic recorded track that's less than 30 seconds and done for the purposes of working on my mixing skills, right? Apparently, I need to make it private again, so that judgemental people like yourself who disagree with me don't fling mud my way.

Experiment or not you could have made it sound good. Any competent player can pick up their respective instruments and play something that sounds decent. It would probably be beneficial to practice mixing on a song that would sound similar you would probably record anyway right?

And lastly, yeah I'm judging you. If you post up your work on the internet you should expect to be judged. Don't be stupid.




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Old 03-11-2013, 10:59 PM   #94
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And lastly, yeah I'm judging you. If you post up your work on the internet you should expect to be judged. Don't be stupid.
If you were judging facets of my argument alone, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But you didn't stick to that. So, adding you to my ignore list. Enjoy it there.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:26 PM   #95
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If you were judging facets of my argument alone, I wouldn't have an issue with it. But you didn't stick to that. So, adding you to my ignore list. Enjoy it there.


Goodbye. I'll be here in the real world.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:43 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
As Maggara said, the guitar is a visual instrument.

We have guitar teachers who teach box shapes and seriously consider that as a valid and useful form of teaching. Why is that a good thing? Is it not better to view the instrument "outside the box", so to speak?

My whole point is, we need to stop treating the guitar as some sort of informal instrument. When it comes to piano, you learn the notes. You may be taught that certain notes are the "notes of the major scale". But, because the piano doesn't lend itself to box shapes similar to that of the guitar, you are only taught that as a teaching tool. It's not a practical application to piano.

But it is a useful form of teaching.
Why is that a good thing?
Because it is a learning tool.
"So you've just started to learn to play the guitar. Cool!!
Well here are six strings and at least 12 frets so 72 choices on where to put your fingers. Go learn them all but be sure to avoid the common mistakes like breaking that range down into smaller chunks - such as 4-5 fret overlapping sections - or using any kind of visual aid, oh and avoid learning how to play scales on your instrument too, because those things are bad."

C'mon man. Wake up.

I honestly think there are one or two talented trolls in this forum that take half the members for a ride because they can construct a convincing argument from an outlandish premise.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:54 PM   #97
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There's nothing wrong with using the box shapes, but when players rely on them for everything is when it becomes a problem.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:59 PM   #98
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I honestly think there are one or two talented trolls in this forum that take half the members for a ride because they can construct a convincing argument from an outlandish premise.


i think that's the sweetest thing you've ever said to me, 20T
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:28 AM   #99
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whoa someone got the ignore list out

shit's real now
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:42 AM   #100
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There's nothing wrong with using the box shapes, but when players rely on them for everything is when it becomes a problem.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks, Morph!
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