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Old 03-27-2013, 09:18 PM   #61
Cathbard
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I used to blame Allan's monopolistic practices at the importer level so now that they are out of business we may see some improvement. Time will tell.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:18 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Cathbard
I use that method for sustain all the time. I'd be lost without it. And no, a feedback effect just isn't the same. By changing the angle between guitar and speakers you can alter the feedback in real time in a very dynamic manner, a pedal/plugin can't do that.


Motion/gesture capture is in development right now for this stuff. We're going to have amp sims tied into Xbox kinect type device functionality that will be built into everything from toasters to battle armor.

It's right around the corner because all the technology required was delivered yesterday.

http://vis.berkeley.edu/~willettw/p...er(willett).pdf
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:24 PM   #63
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You actually work your position and adjust dynamically depending on the situation. You think an Xbox type thing is going to give the same level of expression? I highly doubt it. It isn't just your gestures, it's an organic interaction. This is art, not a video game.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:37 PM   #64
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I don't know if its gonna be plugins or hardware but eventually yes. Tube technology is really old and it will die sooner or later.


the wheel is old tech, it won't die.

aspirin predates tube amplifier technology, as do Ben-Wa Balls and i don't think they are going anywhere. somethings are just good ideas.

as long as we are capitalists and there is a population that wants tube amps (and there is money to be made from that demand) then there will be tube amps.

bring on the new technology as well, i can be creative on that stuff too. if i can not be creative with some new technology then i credit my lack of skill and imagination rather than the inadequacies of the new technology.
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Old 03-27-2013, 09:47 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Cathbard
I used to blame Allan's monopolistic practices at the importer level so now that they are out of business we may see some improvement. Time will tell.


I agree. Their poor business model was always gonna be the demise of that business.
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well i did sit 5th row for the who in '82.

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Old 03-27-2013, 09:50 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Cathbard
You actually work your position and adjust dynamically depending on the situation. You think an Xbox type thing is going to give the same level of expression? I highly doubt it. It isn't just your gestures, it's an organic interaction. This is art, not a video game.


Not now. But soon? Absolutely!
If you are into that sort of thing, technology is going to take exactly the artistic expression that you are talking about - to the next level. It's an evolution of the art. Its organic and digital.



They will have devices that will include the simulated feedback response of specific amps based on the xyz position of the guitar relative to the amp (or the device simulating the amp).

Last edited by 667 : 03-27-2013 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:03 PM   #67
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And you think that is going to replace actual sound hitting the strings and the artistic manipulation of same? I'll believe it when I see it - no, when I can test it.
You may get something similar happening but art is all about subtlety. You can shove your guitar hero crap - I'm an artist, I want the real thing. A mouse cannot replace a paintbrush. You can do fun things with a mouse and create new things that a brush can't - but it aint a brush.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:15 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by 667
Not now. But soon? Absolutely!
If you are into that sort of thing, technology is going to take exactly the artistic expression that you are talking about - to the next level. It's an evolution of the art. Its organic and digital.



They will have devices that will include the simulated feedback response of specific amps based on the xyz position of the guitar relative to the amp (or the device simulating the amp).


That's pretty interesting. But, I don't see that being a very practical application for guitarists. Everything they do can be done with a pedal and no use of the hands. I could see it working for DJ's and Keyboard players. Hell, that'd quite possibly revive keyboard players in the public view and make them more entertaining (I guess).

Edit- Expression pedal in conjuction with synth fx. You should really mess around with synth fx. You'll find waving your hand around/taking your hand off your instrument is not going to help you become more creative. It's just a distraction and potentially cripples your ability to create.

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Old 03-27-2013, 10:17 PM   #69
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Video games bollocks. I'm a guitarist, not a gamer. I'm not relearning how to play to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:24 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Cathbard
Video games bollocks. I'm a guitarist, not a gamer. I'm not relearning how to play to solve a problem that doesn't exist.


Agreed. I'm gonna need a lot more than that video to prove it has a PRACTICAL use for guitarists. It might work wonders in other areas of life. But not guitar.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:28 PM   #71
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The XboX does have a place in the industry tho.

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Originally Posted by ibanez_guru
ARE YOU TONE ******ED??????

Thats not a dig either, its a serious question!!!!!!!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregs1020
well i did sit 5th row for the who in '82.

ears are still ringing a bit.
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:38 PM   #72
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I do get the feeling that a lot of young guitarists are trying to turn guitar playing into a video game. Maybe it's a generational thing but for my part I'd like to say "**** off and get off my lawn."
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Old 03-27-2013, 10:40 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Cathbard
I do get the feeling that a lot of young guitarists are trying to turn guitar playing into a video game. Maybe it's a generational thing but for my part I'd like to say "**** off and get off my lawn."


Hahahaha!
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:54 AM   #74
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Tone is one thing, and digital modeling technology has been there for years. It's not hard to get a kick-ass tone from digital models.

Feel and responsiveness on the other hand, is a far more complex affair. That's what modeling has not yet been able to master. The technology is there, but the engineering of that technology to replicate the complex dynamics of how the player interacts with the amp--and subsequently how the amp interacts with the player--has not been reached.

There is a cyclical synergy involved when playing a good guitar through a good tube amp and speaker cab. The player ends up playing not only the guitar, but essentially the amp and speakers as well. It is a total system type of thing. It can often be unpredictable, which is why we have so much trouble replicating it with digital algorithms.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:08 AM   #75
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Lets see... I've owned an F-100, Mark IV, RoadKing, Splawn QuickRod, and Framus Dragon. Now the only metal amp I own is the Vetta II.

Here's why:

Tubes amps always felt inconsistent to me. One day I loved the tone the next day I hated it.

Tube amps are harder to play on than most solid state amps.

I prefer to have all of my effects, tones, and whatnot in one simple package. A good tube amp and a good effects unit generally will cost way more than a good modeling amp. Additionally, I like having 64 preset channels, that can be quickly adjusted or changed to further increase my tonal pallet.

A $400 tube change (2 amps) every 2 years gets old fast.

I've never had an issue with any of my solid state amps. I've had several hundred dollars in repairs to "high quality" tube amps. Actually, the only tube amp I didn't have problems with was the Framus Dragon, which is probably considered the cheapest in terms of manufacturing of all the tube amps I've owned. I was always WAY more careful with tube amps than my Vetta and my Vetta has yet to fail me.

I'm sure many of you will disagree or have your own experiences which contradict mine and that's understandable. No two amps are the same, even if they're of the same brand, model, or even production run. I'm currently in the market for a new tube amp because despite the conveniences of digital modeling, tonally, it's only about 90% there. Tube amps are irreplaceable, or at least for the next several years. And even then, you're only gonna pry a tube amp from a dead guitarist's hands if you try to take them away.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:11 AM   #76
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Tube amps are harder to play on? Do you mean that they highlight any mistakes you make? The depth of expression that causes that is the very reason I prefer them.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:14 AM   #77
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It's not necessarily about reliability. Tube amps will always be more prone to damage because their components are inherently more "fragile."

It's not necessarily about tone either. I've owned a Vetta II, and it is indeed a killer amp. Got some amazing tones out of it.

It's about physics, and the physical interaction that happens when you are playing through a tube amp--and more importantly what that creates in the context of a performance. Digital modeling has failed to replicate this in an algorithm. Period.
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:24 AM   #78
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They won't because modellers spend all their time trying to sound like valve amps, if you're in a room with an amp and the best modeller version they still sound a lot different, Axe FX still sounds fake compared to the real thing side by side, on record not so much.

I do think that modelling will in the future take up a bigger place in the market, as they improve, they are more affordable to make after all.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:16 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Cathbard
And you think that is going to replace actual sound hitting the strings and the artistic manipulation of same? I'll believe it when I see it - no, when I can test it.
You may get something similar happening but art is all about subtlety. You can shove your guitar hero crap - I'm an artist, I want the real thing. A mouse cannot replace a paintbrush. You can do fun things with a mouse and create new things that a brush can't - but it aint a brush.


The actual sound hitting the strings is still going to happen Cath. We are talking about using human motion to alter that sound. Human motion is a very organic expression.

I'm not saying that tube amps are going away, and to be honest, I'm an analog purist for the most part. Doubting that motion/gesture technology is not going to translate to the guitar effectively is simply a technologically naive outlook on what is happening. The technology is in it's infancy but even for something so new, it's very effective. It's only going to get better and more prevalent. I only brought up the Xbox set top device as an example that showcases the concept in a cheap consumer device that is available now. The set top motion capture box is going away and motion gesture/capture is going to be built into EVERYTHING.

The same way AxeFx simulates a tube amps tone (and even to some extent feel) to the point a layman cannot tell the difference, a device will be created that effectively simulate feedback (and more) using stereoscopic spacial positioning of the guitar relative to the device. If AxeFx don't build it into their tech, a third party's will as an effect package in the chain.

I'm in this business and I follow trends in stereoscopic 3d positioning and augmented reality. My expertise is in Stereoscopic Image Guided Neurosurgery. We use stereo cameras to track electrodes and biopsy needled in 3D space with sub millimeter accuracy. I know the technology's trends, potential and costs. It's going to happen whether you like it or not - and simulating authentic feedback based on the spacial relationship of a tracking device to a guitar will be tit.
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Old 03-28-2013, 09:42 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by 667
The actual sound hitting the strings is still going to happen Cath. We are talking about using human motion to alter that sound. Human motion is a very organic expression.

I'm not saying that tube amps are going away, and to be honest, I'm an analog purist for the most part. Doubting that motion/gesture technology is not going to translate to the guitar effectively is simply a technologically naive outlook on what is happening. The technology is in it's infancy but even for something so new, it's very effective. It's only going to get better and more prevalent. I only brought up the Xbox set top device as an example that showcases the concept in a cheap consumer device that is available now. The set top motion capture box is going away and motion gesture/capture is going to be built into EVERYTHING.

The same way AxeFx simulates a tube amps tone (and even to some extent feel) to the point a layman cannot tell the difference, a device will be created that effectively simulate feedback (and more) using stereoscopic spacial positioning of the guitar relative to the device. If AxeFx don't build it into their tech, a third party's will as an effect package in the chain.

I'm in this business and I follow trends in stereoscopic 3d positioning and augmented reality. My expertise is in Stereoscopic Image Guided Neurosurgery. We use stereo cameras to track electrodes and biopsy needled in 3D space with sub millimeter accuracy. I know the technology's trends, potential and costs. It's going to happen whether you like it or not - and simulating authentic feedback based on the spacial relationship of a tracking device to a guitar will be tit.

I totally agree with you and I think Roland will be among the first to experiment with it, given their direction towards motion detection implemented on the VG-99, although it is not 3D and doesnt use fancy technology as you mentioned, I think this is a step towards 3Dsystems.



As far as digital modeling, it is all about refining the algorithms and reducing the differnce or margin of "error" numerically speaking to a point where this margin is too small for even the most tone picky guys. As far as I'm concerned we're so close already, seeing even the big names are using AxeFx almost exclusively on stage.
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