Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 04-23-2013, 03:48 PM   #41
Sean0913
Music Theory Renegade
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
Because when you flat the 7th of A major you get a D major scale from 5th to 5th. Then there's the whole, "every chord has to be a b7", which kind of shits on theory in general.

Besides, where the heck do you see an E chord that would be a "V" of A major?

I think if you sum those chord tones, including the b7ths, you'll find you come pretty close to using the entire chromatic scale anyway. Well, except for the G# in the actual key of A major.

All of that notwithstanding, this is UG, and just because something doesn't have to be hard, doesn't mean it isn't our manifest destiny to make it so....



Good catch Capn - that will teach me to post when I'm tired! I stand corrected on my analysis It's happened before

So you have I, bIII bVII and IV - I could see that you wouldn't want to carpetbomb a scale. I'd just accent chord tones.

Best,

Sean
__________________
Guitar Teacher/Mentor

Our Online, Theory Based Guitar School

Need a Mentor for Guitar? It's free.


If you are interested in the Academy, I can give you a free Skype Demo. Just contact me on my profile, and we can work out the times.
Sean0913 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 05:43 PM   #42
cdgraves
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
How about if we say technically it's in D, but emotionally it's in A, and call it a draw?


What does this mean? There's no difference. There's no such thing as a song that's technically in a different key than what your ear hears (unless you have bad ears). Key is defined by resolution, not which 7 notes are present in phrase.

The thing is unambiguously in A, no matter what non-A chords are played during the progression.

That said, I'm making some rhythmic assumptions based on the order of the chords. The D would have to be mighty big, long D to make it sound like the tonic, and the G would have to be rhythmically very weak.

Last edited by cdgraves : 04-23-2013 at 05:45 PM.
cdgraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 06:25 PM   #43
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
That said, I'm making some rhythmic assumptions based on the order of the chords. The D would have to be mighty big, long D to make it sound like the tonic, and the G would have to be rhythmically very weak.
TBH, I'm coming at it from a different direction. You see, I'd change the D to Bm, and write a country song around it, based on how bad I feel about my own guitar playing, every time I hear Brad Paisley.

As far as what key this nonsense is, or isn't in, I apologize for falsely giving everyone the impression I care. Here's a tidbit though, when you make the change from G7 to A7, leave that darned F natural out of it. Unless of course you want to sound like someone playing out of tune while trying to learn a Hendrix song at the same time.


Even at that, if a piercing flat 6th works for you and your mates, go with it....

Besides, MT's regulars have already ascertained / proclaimed that, "scales and modes are dumb and useless"; I think it's time we all take that final leap of arrogance and declare, "and for that matter, so are keys".

In retrospect, coming to MT always seems like crashing through the swinging doors of a fun house. You never know what to expect, and sometimes you regret getting on the ride in the first place....

Nothing ventured, nothing gained though. I did elicit a video response from "mdc", in just two short posts. And that's a personal best....
Captaincranky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 06:52 PM   #44
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
 
mdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
Is that a trick question? Cause the G# in the A major scale would clash with almost every chord in the progression.

I'd argue that a modal scale of D would do the trick. No, I'm not trying to start an argument about modes, no I'm not trying to call it modal. Truth be told, I'd get rid of the D major chord altogether, and sub it with Bm7. But then, I never was much of a blues guy.

Nah, nah, don't go round the ****ing houses, just answer the question, which scale sounds better over the progression? A or D?

I'm assuming you know your scale patterns?

So, answer the question, straight up.
mdc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 07:26 PM   #45
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdc
Nah, nah, don't go round the ****ing houses, just answer the question, which scale sounds better over the progression? A or D?

I'm assuming you know your scale patterns?

So, answer the question, straight up.
A major with a flat 7th, of course. That makes us both right, and you looking for a new video.

But, to tell the truth, I would change whatever scale is was playing to be more in line with the changes. I wouldn't stay in A major over the C7. Although, Am Pent would be just dandy.

BTW, were you to put another A chord in between the C & D, the whole thing resolves nicely into D.....A, G, A, C, (A), D At least to my aging, untrained, tin ears.

Last edited by Captaincranky : 04-23-2013 at 11:08 PM.
Captaincranky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 05:48 AM   #46
ha_asgag
Registered User
 
ha_asgag's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissingSomethin
Anyone want to post a solo attempt over this progression??


https://www.box.com/s/rtiski00212vueuo6ci8
https://www.box.com/s/3t9g92aipbzl972hon2f

I just did 2 for fun - 1 penta the other phryg... My playing's so sloppy though... LOL

Last edited by ha_asgag : 04-25-2013 at 08:36 AM.
ha_asgag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 11:46 AM   #47
HotspurJr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
You know, ultimately, I think all the theoretical talk in this thread is missing the point.

How would I solo over that progression?

I'd find a melody I wanted to build my solo around, and I'd go from there.

That melody isn't going to come from me looking at a collection of notes or making an academic decision about scale tones. It's going to come from inside, my body recognizing what it wants to hear and playing that.

Now, yes, that is probably, in this case, going to be built around A major with the use of accidentals. But if the question is "how do you solo over this?" the answer isn't the academic figure-out-the-scale stuff - it's to listen to the progression until you hear a melody, and then play that melody, and then embellish it.

To hear a melody in your head requires a well-developed ear, so obviously I'd encourage people to work on that. But you can't replace the need for a well-developed ear with theory knowledge.
HotspurJr is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 01:09 PM   #48
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
]
Now, yes, that is probably, in this case, going to be built around A major with the use of accidentals. But if the question is "how do you solo over this?" the answer isn't the academic figure-out-the-scale stuff - it's to listen to the progression until you hear a melody, and then play that melody, and then embellish it.

To hear a melody in your head requires a well-developed ear, so obviously I'd encourage people to work on that. But you can't replace the need for a well-developed ear with theory knowledge.
A melody isn't going to come from a string of chord symbols on paper without a rhythm either. So, you just may be on to something.

"Reversing engineering a song", is that anything like "putting the cart before the horse"?

Last edited by Captaincranky : 04-24-2013 at 01:13 PM.
Captaincranky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 02:01 PM   #49
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
 
MaggaraMarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Finland
Actually, why is everybody saying it's in A major? The chords aren't major or minor chords, they lack the third. It could as well be in A minor (and then there would only be one non-diatonic chord, C7). Though it doesn't really matter.

HotspurJr is right. If you have a good ear, you can come up with a melody and just play it.
__________________
My motto: Play what the song needs you to play!

Gear:

Charvel So Cal (MIJ)
Digitech RP355
MXR Micro Chorus
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Hartke HyDrive 210c
MaggaraMarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 05:53 PM   #50
GuitarMunky
I play guitar n stuff
 
GuitarMunky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: on your back
I'd think of it as being in A, not D. Lots of options scale wise, but I recommend keeping it simple, or forgetting it altogether and finding a real song to play rather than noodling over hypotheticals.

Last edited by GuitarMunky : 04-24-2013 at 05:57 PM.
GuitarMunky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 06:48 PM   #51
cdgraves
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Whatever scale or chord is being used at a particular moment has no bearing on the key. The key is chord of resolution.

Using chords of all one quality is also a very common aesthetic. It just creates these fun little melody problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
Actually, why is everybody saying it's in A major? The chords aren't major or minor chords, they lack the third. It could as well be in A minor (and then there would only be one non-diatonic chord, C7). Though it doesn't really matter.

HotspurJr is right. If you have a good ear, you can come up with a melody and just play it.


A7 triad = A C# G. They all have thirds.

Last edited by cdgraves : 04-24-2013 at 06:51 PM.
cdgraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 08:50 PM   #52
ha_asgag
Registered User
 
ha_asgag's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves


A7 triad = A C# G. They all have thirds.


There are no 3rds (unless you include the overtones). The backing track arpeggiates 1, 5, b7 NOT 1, 3 ,b7.
|A-E-G | G-D-F | A-E-G | C-G-Bb | D-A-C | and so the implied chords are neither major nor minor.

Last edited by ha_asgag : 04-24-2013 at 09:08 PM.
ha_asgag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2013, 09:07 PM   #53
cdgraves
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by ha_asgag
There are no 3rds. The backing track arpeggiates 1, 5, b7 NOT 1, 3 ,b7.
|A-E-G | G-D-F | A-E-G | C-G-Bb | D-A-C | and so the implied chords are neither major nor minor.


oh shit, I didn't even see the backing track in the OP.

It's all 5ths and 7ths, do whatever you want. Just throw in the Bb over the C7 and you're golden.

And C wholetone sounds good over the C7 D7, btw.
cdgraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 03:32 AM   #54
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
Actually, why is everybody saying it's in A major? The chords aren't major or minor chords, they lack the third. It could as well be in A minor (and then there would only be one non-diatonic chord, C7). Though it doesn't really matter.
Somebody suggested Am pentatonic also. As you well know, Am and C major pent are the same tones. Following that logic the only chord in the progression that does mesh perfectly with that particular scale, IS the C7! But yet, it looks so out of place, sticking out like a sore thumb.

Well, it's 3:30 AM here, time for something a bit more existential. Perhaps, "if a tree falls on a guitar in the forest, does it make a consonant or a dissonant arpeggio"?

(Now don't get mad, I'm just funnin" witcha).

Last edited by Captaincranky : 04-25-2013 at 03:33 AM.
Captaincranky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 09:29 AM   #55
cdgraves
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
What?

Am/Cmaj pentatonic = A C D E G A

The G7 and C7 are the only chords that don't fit in the scale.
cdgraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 10:49 AM   #56
ha_asgag
Registered User
 
ha_asgag's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
And C wholetone sounds good over the C7 D7, btw.


Really?
ha_asgag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 11:17 AM   #57
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
What?

Am/Cmaj pentatonic = A C D E G A

The G7 and C7 are the only chords that don't fit in the scale.
You're trolling right?

C, E, G equals a C major chord. C,E, G + A equals C6 or Am7.

You'd only have to add B natural to Am pent to get all the chord tones in G as well.
Captaincranky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 11:23 AM   #58
cdgraves
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
yes, C wholetone scale sounds great over C7-D7. It's a cool sound to throw in for a couple beats on dominant turnarounds. Generally you need to do something more than noodle on the tonic triad when you're playing turnarounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
You're trolling right?

C, E, G equals a C major chord. C,E, G + A equals C6 or Am7.

You'd only have to add B natural to Am pent to get all the chord tones in G as well.


C7 contains a Bb. Neither F nor Bb are in Am pentatonic, and there is B anywhere in this progression. All the chords are 5 add 7....

A E G

G D F

D A C

C G Bb

You can play A phryg over it if you want, which is boring as shit, or play them as key changes. Do you need a demonstration?

Last edited by cdgraves : 04-26-2013 at 11:24 AM.
cdgraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2013, 12:42 PM   #59
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
You can play A phryg over it if you want, which is boring as shit, or play them as key changes. Do you need a demonstration?
That would have been my first suggestion, consider each chord a separate key, and use the scale for it.

If I said that, I would have listened a big bunch of shit about, "no it doesn't change key" it's just a modulation.

Frankly I'm surprised to no one has said, "you can play any note you like in the solo, blah, blah blah".

As far as the rest of it goes, Whether or not all the chord tones are in the arpeggio, you could still use them in the solo. No 3rd, (or whatever), no problem. You could still put it in the solo.

The Bb in a C7 chord would actually allude to the key of F. Draw any conclusion you like from that. A natural in the Am pent scale could ostensibly serve as a leading tone for the ("accidental") Bb.... (Ostensibly). And yes, that would lead into tension, not resolve it. But if tension is what you're looking for, then what the hey. (And with that many dominant 7th chords, how can you be looking for anything other than tension).

Playing a minor pentatonic scale over it's same name major chord shit's all over theory anyway.

And be careful how you bandy terms like "Phrygian" around. You'll have me talking about whether the "Andalusian Cadence", is tonal or modal. And trust me, that would be so off topic that even I wouldn't want to listen to me ranting about it....

Last edited by Captaincranky : 04-26-2013 at 12:53 PM.
Captaincranky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2013, 02:58 PM   #60
MissingSomethin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
example of an AC/DC song is "It's a Long Way to the Top". There are no V chords but it's in A major.


Great example to make your point. AC/DC song has G D A, but half the song is just a vamp with the A chord. 90% of the song is an A chord. Key is A.
__________________
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp

Last edited by MissingSomethin : 04-28-2013 at 03:02 PM.
MissingSomethin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:32 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.