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Old 04-27-2013, 04:21 PM   #41
crazysam23_Atax
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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
@Sam: Give your best examples of Progressive Death Metal bands.

Necrophagist, Carnefix, Obscura (though they might fit more into Technical DM), later Death, Origin.

I guess you could search Metal-Archives for more.
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:33 PM   #42
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How the hell are Necrophagist progressive? Or later Death for that matter... Symbolic definitely isn't progressive.. It'd be a stretch to call TSOP prog...
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:43 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by romencer17
How the hell are Necrophagist progressive? Or later Death for that matter... Symbolic definitely isn't progressive.. It'd be a stretch to call TSOP prog...

Prog isn't really defined as narrowly as people think. Here's a simple meaning of progressive metal:
a blend of heavy, guitar-oriented metal music enriched with compositional innovation and complex arrangements, usually expressed through diverse instrumentation and often (but not always) with odd-time signatures.

Obviously, when it comes DM, there's not a lot diverse instrumentation. (Sometimes, there is, but it's rare.)
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:46 PM   #44
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Necrophagist are not progressive.

Progressive death metal should be death metal that is done in a really creative way and expands upon general ideas of the genre in new formats, something like Gorguts' Obscura comes to mind. Necrophagist simply takes death metal and tones down the heaviness while adding a bunch of wank and neoclassical stuff. Pretty much if you really think Necrophagist are progressive then we might as well call any technical death metal "progressive"
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:49 PM   #45
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They're tech
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:57 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Necrophagist, Carnefix, Obscura (though they might fit more into Technical DM), later Death, Origin.

I guess you could search Metal-Archives for more.


Wait...outside of Death, aren't all those bands just Death Metal bands that like to go fast like sonic?

And I think I'm starting to see Steve's opinions on Deathcore, and Metal in general, a lot clearer now. I'm also going to jam to The Flesh And The Power It Holds.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:09 PM   #47
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Can you get any further from progressive than technical death metal?
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:11 PM   #48
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slam/brutal death metal? I'd say that and tech death are the two most formulaic and predictable.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:20 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
And I think I'm starting to see Steve's opinions on Deathcore, and Metal in general, a lot clearer now. I'm also going to jam to The Flesh And The Power It Holds.


Mind sharing it with the rest of us?

I might get it if it's not shrouded in his attitude
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:22 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
Mind sharing it with the rest of us?

I might get it if it's not shrouded in his attitude


Maybe when I'm done asking him questions.

I also didn't know he had an attitude about it. Always seemed fine to me until someone got really emotional about the subject.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:24 PM   #51
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When ever he spoke about it, it was never to inform on the subject.



But to let everyone know how much better he was than them. He had an attitude about it.

At least that's how it always seemed to me.
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:25 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Geldin
My issue with people saying this is that there really has been consistent growth in death metal and through its influence, but so many die-hard fans are so attached to early DM for whatever reason that they reject all of that out of hand.

It's akin to people insisting that good music died in *insert decade here*. There has been growth and expansion; they just don't like it.



But there are plenty of die hard fans of the genre (probably not WC ) who enjoy bands like Antediluvian, Mitochondrion, and even more mainstream stuff like Ulcerate, and all of those bands are currently pushing the boundaries of what death metal can be. They are all Progressive Death Metal bands, in much a truer sense than "they play death metal, with other shit in it," and while there are probably a good deal of trve kvlt guys who don't care for these bands (you're not wrong,) but generally those bands, and the "movement" that they represent, are fairly well respected, liked, or at least not hated.
On the other end of that, there are tons of people who insist that bands like Necrophagist or Fallujah are legitimate death metal bands, which just isn't really able to be substantiated, I don't think. Bands like this (including the vast majority of "Technical Death Metal" bands) are somewhat akin to Melodeath, both in terms of general riff structure, actually, and more importantly, in so much as they tend to actually be a watered down version of like fairly technical brutal death metal of Suffocation ilk, with any actual fire or aggression replaced by instrumental prowess. So these bands get shrugged off by die-hards more on the basis that they (i.e. Necrophagist, Origin, etc.) are to (Brutal) Death Metal (i.e. Suffocation, Nocturnus, even like Erosion era Gorguts, to an extent,) what Melodeath (Children of Bodom, In Flames) are to Melodic Death Metal (At the Gates, Intestine Baalism {however that shit is spelled.})

Ya dig?

And so but the crux of the deal is that bands like this are, in fact, progressing beyond what bands like Necrophagist originally did with their like melo-tech deff, by losing a lot of the wank, and actually y'know, trying to write songs, (I'll let everyone judge for themselves whether or not this band succeeds in that regard.) Furthermore, the group of bands to which Fallujah belongs, which I imagine would include bands like the Contortionist, maybe, (not my area of expertise, or whatever,) seem to be dead set on introducing some ambiance or like thematic elements, kinda occasionally, into the tech deff scene, which is cool, although it still doesn't really appeal to I guess most traditional DM fans. Point being, It isn't that they aren't progressive, in a sense, nor is it that they aren't "progressive death metal," (Whether or not they are DM at all isn't really relative here,) it's that they aren't progressing death metal itself, they're moving forward in and representative of their own little niche genre or subgenre or what the ****, which I guess basically is like modern technical death metal, or some shit of that nature. Which isn't really death metal, in the same way that melo-death isn't really melodic death metal.

And I personally don't consider modern technical death metal to have much at all in common with actual death metal, but I would venture to say that it is closer than deathcore, in that I'm fairly certain that most of the deathcore-like elements (mostly the chuggy shit) of their sound are ripped, or more accurately just inspired, sort of, from bands (Aeon, Malignancy, other Brutal or Slam acts,) that ripped these things from Suffocation in the first place. I mean, not that Malignancy or whoever chugs around a lot, but they all do that ****ing muted fourths chromatic descending thing with the pinch at the end, (everybody knows exactly what I'm talking about, don't play dumb.) So it's twice removed, kind of lost the chromaticism, now has melodic leads or whatever over the top, but at it's heart it's not I don't think really influenced, or even too closely related to deathcore, but it ends up being death-core-ish, somewhat. Anyway that whole last bit was kind of tangential....

Well I lost track of my point... sorry guys.

The real trip is that this band has a pretty ****ing killer lead guitar tone, I wish it was a bit more live, though.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:25 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
*music is all subjective so here's my definition of prog*


fuck off, kike
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:42 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I personally define it as something with a heavy death metal influence ... , interesting arrangements, occasional odd time signatures ... , and often with influences from other genres.

{OR}

a blend of heavy, guitar-oriented metal music enriched with compositional innovation and complex arrangements, usually expressed through diverse instrumentation and often ... with odd-time signatures.

I think your definitions are problematic. Progressive implies innovation and/or development. The song structures of Death Metal already largely eschewed pop/rock verse-chorus format in favor of a holistically constructed narrative style in which riff-salads were constructed to fit the compositional needs of songs / albums. The use of diverse instrumentation, odd time-signatures, and introducing outside influences are not inherently innovative and typically don't present any real development of the art. Usually you get Grindcore with a flute and techno-dance break-down (i.e. horse shit).

Innovation that has occurred in Death Metal has come from bands that either reexamine the means of achieving traditional compositional goals (e.g. Gorguts - Obscura, Demilich - Nespithe) or that expanded the structural possibilities of the already existing format (e.g. Morbid Angel - Blessed are the Sick, Suffocation - Effigy of the Forgotten, Incantation - Onward to Golgotha).

Quote:
*Necrophagist etc.*

This may help provide context and clarity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geldin
My issue with people saying this is that there really has been consistent growth in death metal

Such as?

*edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
When ever [Steve] spoke about it, it was never to inform on the subject. But to let everyone know how much better he was than them. He had an attitude about it. At least that's how it always seemed to me.

I don't think Steve has an attitude, but even if he does, consider ignoring his attitude / pretense and examine the merits of the points he makes. If you find his delivery too problematic, try summarizing the relevant info and pretend a flamboyant, candy-flipping homosexual is presenting it to you simply for consideration.

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Old 04-27-2013, 08:04 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by NotFromANUS
I don't think Steve has an attitude, but even if he does, consider ignoring his attitude / pretense and examine the merits of the points he makes. If you find his delivery too problematic, try summarizing the relevant info and pretend a flamboyant, candy-flipping homosexual is presenting it to you simply for consideration.


Yeah, just do this. Pretend that everything Steve says is said in catburgs voice.

"Ohhh, helloooo therrrre. I'mmm Steveburgggg, and I loooove Morbid Aaaangel, mmm, yessss"

EDIT: I checked that article out and looked at other articles on that site. The one about motif's I looked at and listened to that Rotting Christ song. Oh my god...now that's what people should call Melodic Death Metal.

Oh, and my Phlebotomized album came today. I figured I'd mention that since Progressive Death Metal was mentioned.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:07 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Necrophagist, Carnefix, Obscura (though they might fit more into Technical DM), later Death, Origin.

I guess you could search Metal-Archives for more.

Literally none of those bands are progressive. At all.

And Death's composition/songwriting is anything but complex, especially in the later years. Seriously, every song follows the exact same format.

Just have to get that out there, as usual.

And actually Ambivalent's post nails it as well.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:24 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by NotFromANUS

That article was mostly unrelated to the list I posted, as none of those band were Metalcore. I know you think you're being nice and helping me; you're coming off as condescending.
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Old 04-27-2013, 08:48 PM   #58
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@Morpho

Gorod and Decapitated come to mind. They are not 90s death metal, but the influence is really clear and it's quite obvious that they're working with the same kind of mindset that a lot of early DM bands had.
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Old 04-27-2013, 11:42 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
I looked at and listened to that Rotting Christ song. Oh my god...now that's what people should call Melodic Death Metal.

Are you familiar with Greek Black Metal? If not check out:
Rotting Christ - Thy Mighty Contract, Non Serviam
Varathron - His Majesty at the Swamp
Necromantia - Scarlet Evil Witching Black

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
That article was mostly unrelated to the list I posted, as none of those band were Metalcore.

The article was relevant. If you can't see why, I'm not going to spell it out in agonizing detail.

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I know you think you're being nice and helping me; you're coming off as condescending.

Boo-hoo. I know you think you're being thoughtful in your posts, but you're coming off as ignorant. If my polite condescension is problematic, I could always just be a dick. I try not to be dick when dealing with people. I've especially found on this forum that not being a dick tends to actually make discussions more productive and people more receptive to what I have to say. If that comes with the cost of condescension, so be it.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:17 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by NotFromANUS
Are you familiar with Greek Black Metal? If not check out:
Rotting Christ - Thy Mighty Contract, Non Serviam
Varathron - His Majesty at the Swamp
Necromantia - Scarlet Evil Witching Black


I've not listened to Varathron before, but I've heard Necromantia, not that album though.

Definitely check all them out. Really loving Non Serviam.
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