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Old 04-28-2013, 01:53 AM   #61
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why would some one name a band after mexican food?
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Old 04-28-2013, 05:33 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by NotFromANUS


That article shows either a lack of understanding or a wilful omission of the hardcore end of things. Using those four traits, you can bridge the gap from Botch to metalcore relatively easily, but there's a lot more to take into consideration before you can trace Rites of Spring to Meshuggah.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:48 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26
I've not listened to Varathron before, but I've heard Necromantia, not that album though.

Definitely check all them out. Really loving Non Serviam.

I suspect you'll really dig this shit. Shit's dope.

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Originally Posted by duncang
That article shows either a lack of understanding or a wilful omission of the hardcore end of things.

It's the latter. I agree it's incomplete and problematic in certain respects, but you agree it was relevant to the discussion, right?

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Using those four traits, you can bridge the gap from Botch to metalcore relatively easily, but there's a lot more to take into consideration before you can trace Rites of Spring to Meshuggah.

Right, there's more to it than just those four traits. Even then, directly drawing a line from Rites of Spring to Meshuggah may be overcomplicated.

I think an important consideration to keep in mind is the concession made in the article:
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Critics of the terms “metalcore” and “modern metal” correctly note that these terms are being used as a catch-all. That’s correct, but it’s only part of the story. These terms are being used to describe something that’s not new, but existed before death metal and black metal reached their modern form. It’s an alternate branch of metal’s evolution, upgraded with death metal technique.

The catch-all nature of the genres Metalcore, Deathcore, and what certain people here call Progressive (Death) Metal creates a kind of convolution. Yet, lumping seeming disparate acts together makes sense when you break things down to the essentials.

Agree? Disagree? Is it all just nonsense?
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:54 AM   #64
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It doesn't go far enough to be useful. There's not much to come from comparing a catch-all to a catch-all!
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Old 04-28-2013, 12:27 PM   #65
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I don't think Steve has an attitude, but even if he does, consider ignoring his attitude / pretense and examine the merits of the points he makes.


I have done this, but I can't help but feel that his reasons just don't click with me. I find it so incredibly narrow minded. The idea that if the music doesn't fit a very VERY strict concept of Motif then it isn't Death Metal just seems to feed into the idea of Metal Elitism.

It's less that I don't understand him... I just don't agree with him. I went through great pains to "get it". But I just can't agree.
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Old 04-28-2013, 12:40 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
The idea that if the music doesn't fit a very VERY strict concept of Motif then it isn't Death Metal just seems to feed into the idea of Metal Elitism.

This so much.

Fact is, people who say most modern Death Metal isn't Death Metal are ignoring the fact that the genre is moving forward. Yes, the riffs aren't exactly like Morbid Angel, Immolation, Death, Suffocation, and the rest of the '90s DM bands. But they're certainly inspired by those bands.
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Old 04-28-2013, 12:51 PM   #67
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Though sadly a lot of modern death metal bands suck. Which doesn't really help the argument.
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Old 04-28-2013, 12:57 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
Though sadly a lot of modern death metal bands suck. Which doesn't really help the argument.

I agree.

Although, to be fair, there's tons of DM bands from the '90s that also sucked; we just don't bother with them because they sucked. People put on the nostalgia glasses and forget about things like that.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:27 PM   #69
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Closest I got to enjoying a new Death Metal band was Pyrithion.


Even that wasn't that good.
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Old 04-28-2013, 02:10 PM   #70
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If a band plays in a style that is as different from, say, Incantation on Onward to Golgotha as that album is from, say, Kill 'em All, why is it so wrong to consider that said band is part of a different subgenre? Onward to Golgotha is clearly related to but more developed than Kill 'em All, but would you say that it is therefore a Thrash Metal album?

Even taking the assumption that bands like Necrophagist, Obscura and later Death significantly developed beyond normal Death Metal, that in itself opens up the possibility that they are something different.

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Old 04-28-2013, 02:24 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Hoodoo Man
Even taking the assumption that bands like Necrophagist, Obscura and later Death significantly developed beyond normal Death Metal, that in itself opens up the possibility that they are something different.

Why? They're simply showing a certain amount of development within the genre. Why does everything in the genre have to reflect what was developed in the '90s? If everything remains largely static, then there's no point to it all.

People need to stop treating genres as prescriptive and start treating them as descriptive.

Really, bands like Obscura, Necrophagist, and later Death are just different flavors of DM, and certain people don't like the flavor. So, they're saying, "Oh, it's not Death Metal!"
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Last edited by crazysam23_Atax : 04-28-2013 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 04-28-2013, 02:27 PM   #72
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This argument is getting silly and drawn out... can't we just enjoy the music:

(in b4 no because it's not Death Metal)

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Old 04-28-2013, 02:30 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Why? They're simply showing a certain amount of development within the genre. Why does everything in the genre have to reflect what was developed in the '90s? If everything remains largely static, then there's no point to it all.


Showing 'some' development doesn't make any of them progressive though. Also it's not that it has to stay like it was in the 90's, but the genre has a style and ideology and when you move away from it and tone it down it's not the same thing anymore.


anyways for something on topic - I actually saw this band live a couple years ago when I went to some tech death show with my shitty black metal band at the time. I remember them being pretty meh, and me being confused because the design of the shirts they were selling was trying really hard to look black metal
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Old 04-28-2013, 02:57 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
People need to stop treating genres as prescriptive and start treating them as descriptive.


The argument being that it needs a more accurate description as 'death metal' doesn't really cut it
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Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
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Old 04-28-2013, 03:12 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by duncang
The argument being that it needs a more accurate description as 'death metal' doesn't really cut it

I don't think I was making that argument.
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Old 04-28-2013, 03:29 PM   #76
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I know, they were
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im more of a social godzilla than chameleon

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Alright, I'll give them a try, Japanese Black Speed rarely disappoints.

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Hmm judging from your pic you'd fit in more with a fat busted tribute.
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Old 04-28-2013, 03:35 PM   #77
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I know, they were

Ah, ok. I just confused because I thought you were commenting on what I said.

Sorry, I didn't much sleep last night...
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Old 04-28-2013, 04:44 PM   #78
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There's not much to come from comparing a catch-all to a catch-all!

Unless those catch-alls have certain underlying fundamental links. Nobody is really arguing that these catch-alls are unrelated, only how they are.

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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
I have done this, but I can't help but feel that his reasons just don't click with me. I find it so incredibly narrow minded. The idea that if the music doesn't fit a very VERY strict concept of Motif then it isn't Death Metal just seems to feed into the idea of Metal Elitism.

It's less that I don't understand him... I just don't agree with him. I went through great pains to "get it". But I just can't agree.

I can't agree with your characterization of his reasoning, other than that it is elitist.

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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
This argument is getting silly and drawn out... can't we just enjoy the music:

I attempted to end this line of discussion in my second post. As to what extent I can enjoy the music, that was addressed in my first post (which was so uncontroversial Magero actually approved of it).
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:15 PM   #79
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Unless those catch-alls have certain underlying fundamental links.


I don't think they are fundamental, I think they're elements that tie Botch to The Dillinger Escape Plan but not Fugazi to The Haunted. That emphasises its redundancy, no?
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:57 PM   #80
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We should all just agree that anime does Death Metal better than Tech Death bands.
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