Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 04-25-2013, 02:04 AM   #1
RockAddict311
RockAddict311
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canton, MI
Minor scale with Chord I substitution for a Major I

PLEASE READ EDIT BELOW

So I was listening to Tracy Chapman's Give Me One Reason and I realized the progression is F# B C#, yet the solo is in F# minor. So I pondered a little bit. I understand that theory is only theory and that chord substitutions do occur. I see how you could get B and C# major out of the sharp harmonic minor 6th and 7th, but is there anything behind the F# Major besides the parallel key?

Lil drunk right now, but I believe I explained it clearly. Bear with me

EDIT: I was drunk and I was was moving all the I, II, III, etc around in my head in the wrong order give me a break. Yes I do know theory. I know that with the traditional major keys the triads I, IV, and V are major and the VII is diminished. So this would be in F Major with the chords being I, IV, V.

I thought the drunk statement would be taken more seriously or maybe I should just not be posting drunk.

I guess my only question now is if it is common to use the parallel scale to solo over in a I, IV, V progression that is of a major key?

Last edited by RockAddict311 : 04-25-2013 at 12:01 PM.
RockAddict311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 02:47 AM   #2
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
I don't get why you think there's a chord substitution. F#, B, C#, is I, IV, V, (1, 4, 5), in the key of F# major. It's G, C, D, tuned down a fret. If you were going to strum along with it, you might tune down to Eb standard, instead of E standard. Sort of like capoing in reverse. Then play G, C, D.

Or, capo on the 2nd fret, and play in the key of E major.

In fact, very often you'll see people using a capo on the rhythm guitar when playing in a key such as this, which has no open chord positions.

Oddly, coming up with what to call the key is a tad confusing. Normally an enharmonic key signature is determined by which note name produces the least amount of sharps or flats. That's a wash though. F# has 6 sharps, and Gb has 6 flats.

Using Bm pentatonic over a B major chord is a standard blues/rock device. In the same way you'd solo over E major or E7 with E minor pent.

If you're hearing the whole diatonic Bm scale, then the C# caters to the root of C#, while the B note causes a sus4 when played over F#. (And also C#7 over C#).
Captaincranky is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 09:47 AM   #3
cdgraves
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Ugh, you're both drunk.

The solo is not in F minor. There is literally nothing ambiguous or interesting about this song.
cdgraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 10:32 AM   #4
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
 
AlanHB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra, Australia
It's a I, IV, V song dudes......if this is throwing you off it's time to learn theory from scratch again.
__________________
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
AlanHB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 10:59 AM   #5
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
It's a I, IV, V song dudes......if this is throwing you off it's time to learn theory from scratch again.
It certainly didn't throw me off. I said it was I, IV, V from the start. Please read post 2 again. (and note the last edit time).

I explained how to get that I, IV, V using either a capo, or by down tuning the guitar. (For ease of play).

Then I mused over the enharmonic quandary the F#/GB had temporarily embroiled me in. I'd like to tell that won't happen again, but............

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
Ugh, you're both drunk.

The solo is not in F minor. There is literally nothing ambiguous or interesting about this song.
TS never said it was. Muttered something about, "Bm".

Here's something that may help you with that. Take note of the F and B right at the top.....

I would testify under oath that I wasn't drunk when I published the correct, but perhaps too well thought out answer.

BTW: IMO, there hasn't been anything all going on in music of interest since about 1975. But I try to keep those disappointments to myself. I know how the other children like to judge. Well, there is Loreena McKennitt, and Brad Paisley, but that's all...

This was a joke right? You two are both drunk and you're trolling me.....

Last edited by Captaincranky : 04-25-2013 at 11:06 AM.
Captaincranky is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 11:48 AM   #6
macashmack
Maskcashmack
 
macashmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: New York, NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
IMO, there hasn't been anything all going on in music of interest since about 1975.

macashmack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 11:51 AM   #7
RockAddict311
RockAddict311
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canton, MI
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
Ugh, you're both drunk.

The solo is not in F minor. There is literally nothing ambiguous or interesting about this song.


I meant to put a sharp in there. Like I said. I was drunk.
RockAddict311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 12:30 PM   #8
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by macashmack
Now that's not very nice....



TS, as of my post #2, you had Bm in place of F#m.

But yes, it is common to use the parallel "pentatonic minor" to solo over a major chord. In fact the dissonance created by using minor and major 3rds in the same context is what puts the "blue note" in the "blues" (well that, and all those jarring dominant 7th chords).

Contemplate the famous "Hendrix Chord" Correctly named it E7#9. Correctly played, it just adds a G note (3rd fret e-1) on top of E7. And E7, or E dom 7th, is technically, (at least note wise), not in the key of E. That would be a b7, and the G, would be a b3rd, (minor 3rd), had we not decided to play the major 3rd (G#) in the same context. Since you can't notate two thirds in the same chord, it becomes a "raised 9th". (F# is the natural 9th of E major). (A "#9", is a minor 3rd above the root, and would be the 3rd if the chord were to be called "Em").

I doubt if that's coherent, but I gave it a shot.

Last edited by Captaincranky : 04-25-2013 at 01:11 PM.
Captaincranky is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2013, 01:12 PM   #9
RockAddict311
RockAddict311
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canton, MI
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
Now that's not very nice....



TS, as of my post #2, you had Bm in place of F#m.

But yes, it is common to use the parallel "pentatonic minor" to solo over a major chord. In fact the dissonance created by using minor and major 3rds in the same context is what puts the "blue note" in the "blues" (well that, and all those jarring dominant 7th chords).


Yah, my mental state was not well last night. I think I put the Bm in because I was trying the same progression in a different keys. I really like the blue notes in the blues pentatonic scale too with the added sharp 4th in the minor and sharp 2nd in the relative blues major. Thanks for being understanding!
RockAddict311 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 05:22 PM   #10
etkearne
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Since the 1700s, modal mixture has been extremely common-place for all degrees of the scale, even the tonic (the most obvious is the use of the major triad on the dominant in a natural minor framework). Of course, one must be trying to convince the listener of a specific reason for mode mixture (ie: "borrowed chords") or it may sound bad, especially is the voice-leading is not very strong, or if the mixed chord is presented in its unmixed form in a situation very similar to that voiced in the original, mixed, form.

In fact, there are plenty of Bach pieces, such as in "A Well Tempered..." that are major key and employ cadances ending in the minor tonic. The opposite, the major tonic in minor is called the "Picadilly"(sp?) Third and was used as far back as the Renaissance, where presumably it got its name from in England.

The "blue note" phenomena really came into common practice around the 1890s as the dominant seventh chord with a lowered third in addition to the major third, usually voiced an octave higher or lower as to avoid crammed voicing and close minor seconds. It can be argued that the blue note was simultaneously "discovered" by blues musicians as well in the USA around the same time. There is no evidence Ravel knew of the blues (although he learned of jazz later in his life) nor that the delta blues musicians knew of Ravel's work.

According to Piston and DeVoto at least, Ravel was the first major composer to use this. He did so as early as the 1890s in his pieces such as Miroirs ("Reflections") which is still famous today (and highly recommended!).
etkearne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2013, 08:14 PM   #11
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
 
AlanHB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra, Australia
^^^ Modal mixture is a term that describes the borrowing of a chord from the parallel major or minor key. The dominant major V in a minor key in your example is not a good example of this as the major V is drawn from the harmonic minor. The "blue note" is simply a b5 accidental.

It was a nice summary of the accidental's rise to popularity, but there were some flaws here and there.
__________________
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
AlanHB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2013, 03:05 PM   #12
etkearne
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Interesting that you find Walter Piston to be a flawed authority on harmony, considering every "point" made was double-checked by myself against "Harmony" Fifth Edition, by Walter Piston.

Your point about the major V being drawn from the Harmonic Minor is certainly valid, but so is the interpretation that I gave. Harmony is not a science like Mathematics. It is open to multiple interpretations.

The blue note, again, is technically NOT just a b5 accidental. That is the tritone, which has nothing to do with the blue note. The blue note pertains to altering the modal degrees of the scale, which are, by definition, the third and sixth.

These are important differences (the blue note, not the Harmonic Minor thing) and I would advise checking out a book like "Harmony" to clarify the issue (as understandably, it is rather complex).
etkearne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2013, 06:38 PM   #13
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
 
AlanHB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra, Australia
^^^ I didn't say it wasn't an example of modal mixture, just that it wasn't a very good one, as it could be explained without borrowing from the parallel major or minor.

As for "its not an accidental because its altering a modal degree of the scale", I am not familiar with this concept. But Im also not familiar with how altering the 3rd or 6th of a scale results in a b5. If the note is outside the key, it's an accidental.
__________________
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
AlanHB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 04:35 AM   #14
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
 
MaggaraMarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Finland
Quote:
Originally Posted by etkearne
Since the 1700s, modal mixture has been extremely common-place for all degrees of the scale, even the tonic (the most obvious is the use of the major triad on the dominant in a natural minor framework). Of course, one must be trying to convince the listener of a specific reason for mode mixture (ie: "borrowed chords") or it may sound bad, especially is the voice-leading is not very strong, or if the mixed chord is presented in its unmixed form in a situation very similar to that voiced in the original, mixed, form.

In fact, there are plenty of Bach pieces, such as in "A Well Tempered..." that are major key and employ cadances ending in the minor tonic. The opposite, the major tonic in minor is called the "Picadilly"(sp?) Third and was used as far back as the Renaissance, where presumably it got its name from in England.

The "blue note" phenomena really came into common practice around the 1890s as the dominant seventh chord with a lowered third in addition to the major third, usually voiced an octave higher or lower as to avoid crammed voicing and close minor seconds. It can be argued that the blue note was simultaneously "discovered" by blues musicians as well in the USA around the same time. There is no evidence Ravel knew of the blues (although he learned of jazz later in his life) nor that the delta blues musicians knew of Ravel's work.

According to Piston and DeVoto at least, Ravel was the first major composer to use this. He did so as early as the 1890s in his pieces such as Miroirs ("Reflections") which is still famous today (and highly recommended!).

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the topic. TS wasn't asking about borrowing chords, he was pretty much asking about playing F#m pentatonic over I-IV-V in F# major. The title is misleading but I think that's because TS was drunk.

But yeah, it's really common to use the parallel minor scale over a major chord progression in rock music.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Just rememeber that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Digitech RP355
MXR Micro Chorus
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Hartke HyDrive 210c
MaggaraMarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 11:10 AM   #15
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by etkearne
...[ ]...In fact, there are plenty of Bach pieces, such as in "A Well Tempered..." that are major key and employ cadances ending in the minor tonic. The opposite, the major tonic in minor is called the "Picadilly"(sp?) Third and was used as far back as the Renaissance, where presumably it got its name from in England.
....[ ]...
Um, how about if we go with "Picardy 3rd....?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picardy_third
Captaincranky is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 01:14 PM   #16
mattrusso
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
I usually try to avoid posting in this cluster**** of a forum, but I couldn't help myself on this one...

Are you guys seriously having this intense of a debate about this tune? It's just a 12 bar blues progression (I am absolutely shocked that no one has mentioned this yet), and it's about as simple as those get. As you all (hopefully) know, blues progressions (and melodies) do not follow the same rules as standard major/minor key.

Just to give you guys some quick background, blues was basically created when slaves and their descendants in the US brought over pentatonic-flavored melodies from west Africa and mixed them with the western, heavily subdominant-oriented ("plagal") harmonic cadences they heard in American churches. So, "minor" pentatonic melodies played over "major"(-ish) harmonies are actually the very essence of the blues.
mattrusso is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 01:23 PM   #17
Captaincranky
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattrusso
I usually try to avoid posting in this cluster**** of a forum, but I couldn't help myself on this one...

Are you guys seriously having this intense of a debate about this tune? It's just a 12 bar blues progression (I am absolutely shocked that no one has mentioned this yet), and it's about as simple as those get. As you all (hopefully) know, blues progressions (and melodies) do not follow the same rules as standard major/minor key.

Now you listen here Buster, all our debates are serious, even when they're pointless...

Besides, the TS admitted to being drunk at the onset. How serious could it be?
Captaincranky is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 07:32 PM   #18
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
 
AlanHB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra, Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattrusso
I usually try to avoid posting in this cluster**** of a forum, but I couldn't help myself on this one...

Are you guys seriously having this intense of a debate about this tune? It's just a 12 bar blues progression (I am absolutely shocked that no one has mentioned this yet), and it's about as simple as those get. As you all (hopefully) know, blues progressions (and melodies) do not follow the same rules as standard major/minor key.

Just to give you guys some quick background, blues was basically created when slaves and their descendants in the US brought over pentatonic-flavored melodies from west Africa and mixed them with the western, heavily subdominant-oriented ("plagal") harmonic cadences they heard in American churches. So, "minor" pentatonic melodies played over "major"(-ish) harmonies are actually the very essence of the blues.


Thanks dude, and just for some extra background a 12 bar blues progression can also be referred to as a I, IV, V progression as per the early posts in this thread.

If its not obvious, TS' s questions were addressed already, right now we're just fighting with randoms whom keep bumping this thread to the top. You would be the second.
__________________
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
AlanHB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2013, 07:37 PM   #19
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
 
mdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockAddict311
I thought the drunk statement would be taken more seriously or maybe I should just not be posting drunk.

I guess my only question now is if it is common to use the parallel scale to solo over in a I, IV, V progression that is of a major key?

It was better when you were posting drunk.
mdc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2013, 12:20 AM   #20
MissingSomethin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
1 4 5 with a blues solo results in a complete trainwreck of a thread.
I feel better about myself.
__________________
1978 Les Paul Custom Sunburst
2001 USA Strat (Hot & Cool Rails)
Effects: Boss GT-6 with Tech-21 Power Amp
MissingSomethin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:33 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.