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Old 04-29-2013, 07:58 AM   #1
sinfulsix
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Scales

I'm not trying to learn a scale just to learn it if that makes sense. I see a scale with out knowing your notes or the keys and the the roots to be worthless. And thats why i learned my notes and witch keys ect. Anyways

"every one swears study the minor pent scale" Yeah thats cool if you like AC/DC or bands like them or even if your really into the blues. I'm trying to figure whats a good scale i could really waste time on and get something out of it. Not every one wants to learn every scale i mean thats great to know but you can spend so much time on just 1 scale days weeks months burning it into your brain were you dont think you just do it cause you know it......

Anyways whats a good scale to focus on for metal? Minor harmonic? i mean the list go's on..... I do plan on learning all the scales i can even the ones won't use alot im sure... but i feel wasting time a scale you may and may not use pending on the taste of your music or style is a waste of time but should be learned later on to know it.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:20 AM   #2
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The major scale, if you actually want to learn anything that's the one you need to start with.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:23 AM   #3
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Stop thinking in scales so much. Think more in the lines of keys and sounds. Will practicing scales that are "focused towards mettal" help you play metal better? Not really, it will help you play scales better. LEARNING metal and ANALYZING it will help you play metal, cause then you will see different scales and arpeggios and such in there.

This video basically have the message, but replace "tablature" with "scales".
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:34 AM   #4
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its not that i just want a scale and think oh so i know a scale im going to go write some amazing metal solos. I'm trying to learn more music theory and not just go by what i hear..... a person who has been playing for a year can pick up a guitar and play random notes and not know what they are even playing i know people who can play amazing and don't even know what a c chord is but they play it they just dont know the name of it.

Yes im looking for scales "worth learning" that will take me some were but also learning the theory. So lets say a friend starts playing a song and i don't know what key to play it in am i going to just pick a random key? scales and yes hearing but scale help a ton... and knowing what your playing is a plus...if a riff is in the key of a i know if i play any scale for that matter in the key of a it would fit...

Last edited by sinfulsix : 04-29-2013 at 08:36 AM.
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Old 04-29-2013, 01:40 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinfulsix
its not that i just want a scale and think oh so i know a scale im going to go write some amazing metal solos. I'm trying to learn more music theory and not just go by what i hear..... a person who has been playing for a year can pick up a guitar and play random notes and not know what they are even playing i know people who can play amazing and don't even know what a c chord is but they play it they just dont know the name of it.

Yes im looking for scales "worth learning" that will take me some were but also learning the theory. So lets say a friend starts playing a song and i don't know what key to play it in am i going to just pick a random key? scales and yes hearing but scale help a ton... and knowing what your playing is a plus...if a riff is in the key of a i know if i play any scale for that matter in the key of a it would fit...

Music is about sound so connecting your ear to your fingers is very important. Of course knowing the key you are playing in helps. But the thing is, not every note in A major scale will sound good over every diatonic chord in A major.

Learn how to build a major and a minor scale and learn the intervals. You can build your own scales if you know the intervals and it doesn't matter what the scale is called. Many times you are playing the major scale and accidentals. Or the minor scale and accidentals.

And to know the key of the song, you need to listen to it. Listen to where it resolves to. Which chord feels like "home"? That's the key center. And if you can play by ear, that's great. You don't need to think in scales. Music is about the sounds you play, not about the fingerings or note names you play.

So learn about chord functions, intervals and how to build a scale. Connecting your ears to your fingers is the most important thing.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:40 PM   #6
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The thing is, scales aren't as important as people think they are. Keys are more important.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:25 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
But the thing is, not every note in A major scale will sound good over every diatonic chord in A major.


I've heard that so often. For example, that the fourth "note" (degree) of the major scale sounds dissonant over the I chord.

AMaj7, Bmin7, C#min7, DMaj7, E7, F#min7, G#m7b5

So that the "d" note sounds dissonant over an A major chord.

What notes of the A Major Scale -- A B C# D E F# G# -- are considered dissonant over the other chords. That is, if one were to make a list of what notes of the A Major Scale sound dissonant or clash with the chords in the Key of A, how would you complete the following:

AMaj7 -the D (fourth) is dissonant
Bmin7 -
C#min7 -
DMaj7 -
E7 -
F#min7 -
G#m7b5 -

*
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:31 PM   #8
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A general rule of thumb is that notes a semitone (one fret) apart will sound dissonant when played together. So the reason the D over an A major sounds dissonant is because it's one semitone up from the Maj 3rd in A, the C#.

It goes deeper than that and obviously you shouldn't avoid the 4th altogether but it's something to bear in mind!
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Meikle Treikle
A general rule of thumb is that notes a semitone (one fret) apart will sound dissonant when played together. So the reason the D over an A major sounds dissonant is because it's one semitone up from the Maj 3rd in A, the C#.

It goes deeper than that and obviously you shouldn't avoid the 4th altogether but it's something to bear in mind!



A Major Scale notes: A B C# D E F# G#

I understand one shouldn't avoid the 4th altogether, but so far as being aware, what note of the A Major Scale would be dissonant for each of the following chords in the key Of A:

AMaj7 - the D is dissonant
Bmin7 -
C#min7 -
DMaj7 -
E7 -
F#min7 -
G#m7b5 -


I know this is probably an easy theory question for most, but I'm still in the early learning (and playing) stage.

Last edited by rutle_me_this : 04-29-2013 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rutle_me_this
I've heard that so often. For example, that the fourth "note" (degree) of the major scale sounds dissonant over the I chord.

AMaj7, Bmin7, C#min7, DMaj7, E7, F#min7, G#m7b5

So that the "d" note sounds dissonant over an A major chord.

What notes of the A Major Scale -- A B C# D E F# G# -- are considered dissonant over the other chords. That is, if one were to make a list of what notes of the A Major Scale sound dissonant or clash with the chords in the Key of A, how would you complete the following:

AMaj7 -the D (fourth) is dissonant
Bmin7 -
C#min7 -
DMaj7 -
E7 -
F#min7 -
G#m7b5 -

*

The fourth note over every major chord sounds pretty bad. That's because there's a minor 2nd between the 4th and a major third. All non-chord tones are dissonant but some sound more dissonant than others. For example a major 2nd over a major chord sounds pretty good but a major 7th sounds pretty bad.

So avoid landing on notes that are a minor 2nd away from a chord tone. In minor chords it's the major 2nd (or 9th) and the minor 6th. And in major chords it's the perfect/augmented 4th and the major 7th.

Any note over any chord will sound good if you resolve it to a chord tone. So you can make a fourth sound good over a major chord if the next note you play is a chord tone. For example play an F and after that an E over a C major chord and it will sound pretty good. You can add dissonance to your playing and it will sound more interesting than just playing the chord tones. But you need to release the tension. Otherwise it will sound like you are playing wrong notes.

So really, don't avoid playing certain notes over certain chords. Learn to use all notes over all chords. There are no wrong notes and you can make anything sound good. It's all about tension and release. Dissonant notes (non-chord tones) add tension and you can release the tension by playing a consonant note (chord tone).
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Old 04-29-2013, 05:38 PM   #11
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Awesome music theory guys, i my self am still new to it i have been playing guitar for years but i don't want to just play i want to understand the music. Why something works why something wont i mean the list is endless i doubt i will learn everything i want the correct way or the best way with out a teacher or school. But i feel a little go's a long way even if its something small.
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Old 04-29-2013, 06:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinfulsix
Awesome music theory guys, i my self am still new to it i have been playing guitar for years but i don't want to just play i want to understand the music. Why something works why something wont i mean the list is endless i doubt i will learn everything i want the correct way or the best way with out a teacher or school. But i feel a little go's a long way even if its something small.


the important thing to consider is that theory is only there to explain why things that sound good work. it's very good to start with scales, chords, your circle of fifths to get a feel of what conventions you can expect, but as soon as your ear is sharp enough to transcribe and analyze music and extract that information straight from the tap, the guidelines you start off on will become very unimportant so you don't want to get caught up too much in what scale somebody's playing.

hence why everybody's jumping the gun about keys, because they're a lot broader and will cover you 99% of the time provided you keep your wits about you.

in general, though, start with baby steps and start learning music by ear along with scales and any resources you can find on theory (musictheory.net is a common plug). it's more a process of being able to hear, interpret, understand, and communicate with music, like a language, and you'll develop it over time by being active. so don't get deterred if you hit a rut or anything - once you learn the fundamentals inside and out, it'll be like a lightbulb went off.
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Old 04-29-2013, 06:22 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by rutle_me_this
I've heard that so often. For example, that the fourth "note" (degree) of the major scale sounds dissonant over the I chord.
Asus4 is dissonant?
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Old 04-29-2013, 06:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
Asus4 is dissonant?

No but Aadd11 sounds dissonant. And that's what you get when you play a fourth over the I chord.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:02 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Captaincranky
Asus4 is dissonant?


4ths are treated as dissonant for melodic purposes (think counterpoint) because your ear wants to hear them resolve downward by half step. Sus4 chords are "dissonant" in that they sound unresolved, which increases the overall tension of a cadence.

11th chords, on the other hand, are different animal because 11 implies that the third is already in there, while sus4 means there's a 4th instead of a 3rd. I wouldn't throw a natural 11th into a chord without a good reason, but sus4 is often a nice melodic embellishment to chord progressions.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:04 AM   #16
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:26 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rutle_me_this
I've heard that so often. For example, that the fourth "note" (degree) of the major scale sounds dissonant over the I chord.

AMaj7, Bmin7, C#min7, DMaj7, E7, F#min7, G#m7b5

So that the "d" note sounds dissonant over an A major chord.

What notes of the A Major Scale -- A B C# D E F# G# -- are considered dissonant over the other chords. That is, if one were to make a list of what notes of the A Major Scale sound dissonant or clash with the chords in the Key of A, how would you complete the following:

AMaj7 -the D (fourth) is dissonant
Bmin7 - none here
C#min7 -
DMaj7 -
E7 -
F#min7 -
G#m7b5 -

*


AMaj7 -the D (fourth) is dissonant
Bmin7 - none here, all you have are extended chords. 9th 11 13
C#min7 - none here see the notes above
DMaj7 - none here the 11 is raised
E7 - A it's a 4th against a major 3rd
F#min7 - none here
G#m7b5 - A

Now I did the "heavy lifting", but there's more to it, you have to decide what notes create tension and which ones resolve tension. Basic theory needed. There are no short cuts, and if you don't have the basics of triads and chord tones, you'll find yourself adrift really easily trying to reverse engineer it.

9ths 11ths and 13s are all tones that want to resolve somewhere, and which bring about a fair bit of tension.

Best,

Sean
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:12 AM   #18
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I would avoid accenting the A over E7, myself
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:47 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
No but Aadd11 sounds dissonant. And that's what you get when you play a fourth over the I chord.
So then, would it be fair to sat that D over A5 wouldn't be dissonant?

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Old 05-01-2013, 03:21 AM   #20
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I would avoid accenting the A over E7, myself


Good catch. I thought I put that one also.

Yeah' that A over E7 not a good idea, again it creates a 4th against a major 3rd G#. Not good.

Best,

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