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Old 05-13-2013, 10:43 AM   #81
samuraigoomba
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Well, not only has this thread become very informative, it has reignited my GAS.

Next up I guess is to compare the high-end Valkyrie models (remember the Valkyrie? They still get them in at Rondo now and then) to SG Studios. I think they'd probably be a bit closer in specs, considering weight isn't such a big deal in nailing "SG sound" as it is for Les Pauls.
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Old 05-13-2013, 11:56 AM   #82
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Someone's been PMing for backup...

The nitro thing I don't agree with. I want my guitars to ruin nicely which is why I have an AVRI Strat with a nitro finish. But whatever.
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Old 05-13-2013, 12:12 PM   #83
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They are still Agiles.
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:17 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Tom 1.0


They are still Agiles.

+1 and they are an inferior guitar, not a bad guitar, just inferior in construction/materials.

The best thing about this is comparing a mass produced Asian guitar to a hand made instrument.
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Old 05-13-2013, 05:25 PM   #85
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This is the thing. Subjectively, yea whatever. You can like what you want.

Objectively you can't deny the higher grade parts and construction.

These threads pop up every now and again, Squier vs Fender, Gibson vs 'insert guitar here'.

At the end of the day everything else is just imitation. It's very rare that a copy beats the original. Not to say they are bad guitars, just not as good.

The poly argument annoyed me lol. Nitro looks so much better when it fades, it feels better, smells better. It's just better.
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:05 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbgnarly

The best thing about this is comparing a mass produced Asian guitar to a hand made instrument.


You need to join the rest of us in the 21st Century. Gibson uses CNC's in their guitar construction now.
http://www.designnews.com/document....pLayout=article



"CNC machines and guitar making go together as well as 'Country and Western' or 'Rock and Roll'. In fact, CNC does such a good job at improving the productivity and quality of repetitive wood routing tasks that all of the major guitar makers have adopted it over the past 20 years. Gibson, though, recently took CNC use a step further when it installed a new automatic bandsaw that helps keeps its Nashville factory humming along.

In the past, CNC machines were employed primarily for routing, according to Gene Nix, a Gibson wood products specialist who helped develop the new bandsaw. 'We'd been using CNC routers since the late 80's,' he says. 'But a CNC bandsaw is a first for the guitar business.'

Gibson installed the new saw, which was built by Warsaw Machinery, primarily for reasons of productivity. In the past, the company's electric guitar necks were manually run through the bandsaw prior to their final shaping. Nix says a good saw operator would get from 200 to 250 necks per day.

The three-axis bandsaw, which works on up to three necks at once, can do 'several times that amount,' Nix says. The same logic applies to electric guitar bodies. The saw can handle a stack of three to five body blanks, depending on the guitar model."

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Old 05-13-2013, 06:12 PM   #87
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You know people who buy good guitars dont need to go to such extremes lengths to justify their purchase.
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:17 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by peskypesky
You need to join the rest of us in the 21st Century. Gibson uses CNC's in their guitar construction now.

But you left out the part where besides the body shape routing it is done by hand.

You have a serious hard on for agile huh?

It is fine that you like them, but honestly stop trying to pull up this stupid debate. If Agiles were as great as a lot of the fan boys make them out then why isn't everyone playing them now? Agile is a good BUDGET guitar, nothing more or less.
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:35 PM   #89
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^+1. This thread has derailed from its original purpose. Like Tom and Mepha were saying, the argument will not be won by either side. A lot has to do with justification.
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:35 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbgnarly
But you left out the part where besides the body shape routing it is done by hand.

You have a serious hard on for agile huh?

It is fine that you like them, but honestly stop trying to pull up this stupid debate. If Agiles were as great as a lot of the fan boys make them out then why isn't everyone playing them now? Agile is a good BUDGET guitar, nothing more or less.


Have a hard time dealing with facts, do you?
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:38 PM   #91
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Quote:
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Have a hard time dealing with facts, do you?


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Old 05-13-2013, 06:41 PM   #92
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Almost bought an expensive Agile. Then I realized the risk was too damn high and bought an AW-7 instead.

Expensive Agile. Oxymoron?
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:42 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peskypesky
Have a hard time dealing with facts, do you?

What facts? it is all you opinion vs others opinions.

I will have to say your user name is perfect for a 16 yr old troll

Fact is I like PRS, they are CNC machined and you know what they are probably the most consistant big guitar mfgr that is currently producing guitars.

Can a mod please close this crap already
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Old 05-13-2013, 06:57 PM   #94
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Faded Studios are one of the cheaper options for Gibson and I think they're better than the Agiles I've played. The neck on those guitars are incredible.

Epiphones Standards, Customs are where the comparison lies for me. I have a lot of time for those guitars.

Again, no one is saying they're bad guitars just that the comparison might be a little inflated and that perhaps there's some bias going on.
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Last edited by Mephaphil : 05-13-2013 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:00 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbgnarly
+1 and they are an inferior guitar, not a bad guitar, just inferior in construction/materials.

The best thing about this is comparing a mass produced Asian guitar to a hand made instrument.


Okay, you've made the assertion. I call BS. Now back it up.

1. Prove that they're inferior in construction.
2. Prove that the materials are inferior.
3. Prove that they're any more "mass produced" than any Gibson.

Here are some things you may not know.
  • Gibson LP style headstocks are the most broken headstock, followed by tilted pointies. Agiles...not so much.
  • The species of mahogany we know as Honduras Mahogany was planted and is farmed throughout Asia. It is no longer available from Honduras and largely comes from places like Indonesia, which is where Agile's factory gets it and where Gibson gets it.
  • Gibson uses Indian rosewood (when they can get it). Isn't India closer to Korea than to Nashville? Guess where Agile's rosewood fretboards come from? Gibson's "layered" rosewood fretboards have fret slots that are so deep that the construction resembles a set of small rosewood blocks glued to a thin strip of rosewood.
  • Chinese maple is among the best figured maple in the world.
  • The Agile AL-3000 comes with an ebony fretboard, real MOP or abalone inlays, a Graph Tech nut and a Graphtech NVS2 bridge with String Saver Saddles. They ship with D'Addario strings.
  • The Agile AL-3000 comes with triple binding on headstock and body (a labor intensive process).
  • The Agile AL-3000 is fully grain-filled and comes with a glossy finish (a labor intensive process).
  • The Agile AL-3000 comes with a two-piece back.
  • The Agile AL-3000M comes with a full 3/4" maple cap.
  • The Agile AL-3125 is chambered; most other models are solid mahogany.
  • The Agile AL-3000 comes with Grover 102-18N tuners.
  • Agile AL-3100 Floyds come with a Floyd Rose from the same Korean production line as what comes standard on the Gibson Axcess.
  • Both Gibson and Agile have CNC-created necks and bodies.
  • Both Gibson and Agile have glued necks.
  • Both Gibson and Agile require hand-sanding.
  • Both Gibson and Agile require hand assembly of all hardware and wiring.
  • Both Gibson and Agile require hand binding.
  • Both Gibson and Agile require hand-scraping of binding.
  • Gibson has nibs that reduce the string spacing of the nut. Agile's frets are full-width
  • Gibson's fretboard binding cracks in the area of the nibs if there are temp or humidity variations.
  • Agile's frets are hand-filed.
  • Gibson's frets are machine-milled using a fixture that simulates string tension. And yet they still arrive with frets that are sometimes not level.
  • Gibson's finish reacts with chemicals, reacts with solvents, reacts with some materials, reacts with moisture, cracks, checks, disintegrates, discolors, flakes and releases nitric and sulfuric acids which can etch and corrode nearby metals. Agile's does none of that, and does a better job of protecting the guitar.

So explain what you're on about, eh?

Last edited by dspellman : 05-13-2013 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:14 PM   #96
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Yea okay. Agile, the guitar of kings.

My frets are level as were my previous Gibsons. I've never seen binding crack. Nitro>poly. It's not just the wood, it's the quality of the wood.

Who cares about the strings anyway?

Do you think it's the same grade with the same expertise? Because it's not, it's not at all.

Again, Agiles are cool. Just not as cool as you're claiming.
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Last edited by Mephaphil : 05-13-2013 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:16 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephaphil
Faded Studios are one of the cheaper options for Gibson and I think they're better than the Agiles I've played. The neck on those guitars are incredible.


You realize that "better" necks are an opinion, right? You also realize that you have three different options in size for Agile necks on most AL (LP-style) guitars, right? Which have you played? I'm assuming here that you've never owned an Agile, but "played" one. Or two? There are the standard size necks which are similar but not identical to 60's necks, "wide" (which gives you a full 1 3/4" nut width and wider string spacing in the cowboy chord area with about the same overall neck thickness from fretboard to back of neck) and a slim neck, which has the same width as the standard neck but which has less depth front to back. What, exactly, did you NOT like about the Agile neck?

Quote:
Again, no one is saying they're bad guitars just that the comparison might be a little inflated and that perhaps there's some bias going on.


I'm not sure where the "bias" lies (def. bias = 1. An inclination or preference that influences judgment from being balanced or even-handed. Prejudice is bias in pejorative sense.) Certainly some Gibson owners should show an inclination toward their guitars, perhaps Agile owners would show an inclination toward theirs. What of the people that own both (I have four times as many Gibsons as Agiles)? Is there any chance that they'll have an objective vision of the two? Or will the amount of money they've paid bias them as well? What, exactly, do you find "inflated," and in which direction? Agile owners have an inflated idea of the quality of their guitars or Gibson owners have an inflated idea of the value of theirs?
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:19 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dspellman
Okay, you've made the assertion. I call BS. Now back it up.

1. Prove that they're inferior in construction.
2. Prove that the materials are inferior.
3. Prove that they're any more "mass produced" than any Gibson.

Here are some things you may not know.
  • Gibson LP style headstocks are the most broken headstock, followed by tilted pointies. Agiles...not so much.
  • The species of mahogany we know as Honduras Mahogany was planted and is farmed throughout Asia. It is no longer available from Honduras and largely comes from places like Indonesia, which is where Agile's factory gets it and where Gibson gets it.
  • Gibson uses Indian rosewood (when they can get it). Isn't India closer to Korea than to Nashville? Guess where Agile's rosewood fretboards come from? Gibson's "layered" rosewood fretboards have fret slots that are so deep that the construction resembles a set of small rosewood blocks glued to a thin strip of rosewood.
  • Chinese maple is among the best figured maple in the world.
  • The Agile AL-3000 comes with an ebony fretboard, real MOP or abalone inlays, a Graph Tech nut and a Graphtech NVS2 bridge with String Saver Saddles. They ship with D'Addario strings.
  • The Agile AL-3000 comes with triple binding on headstock and body (a labor intensive process).
  • The Agile AL-3000 is fully grain-filled and comes with a glossy finish (a labor intensive process).
  • The Agile AL-3000 comes with a two-piece back.
  • The Agile AL-3000M comes with a full 3/4" maple cap.
  • The Agile AL-3125 is chambered; most other models are solid mahogany.
  • The Agile AL-3000 comes with Grover 102-18N tuners.
  • Agile AL-3100 Floyds come with a Floyd Rose from the same Korean production line as what comes standard on the Gibson Axcess.
  • Both Gibson and Agile have CNC-created necks and bodies.
  • Both Gibson and Agile have glued necks.
  • Both Gibson and Agile require hand-sanding.
  • Both Gibson and Agile require hand assembly of all hardware and wiring.
  • Both Gibson and Agile require hand binding.
  • Both Gibson and Agile require hand-scraping of binding.
  • Gibson has nibs that reduce the string spacing of the nut. Agile's frets are full-width
  • Gibson's fretboard binding cracks in the area of the nibs if there are temp or humidity variations.
  • Agile's frets are hand-filed.
  • Gibson's frets are machine-milled using a fixture that simulates string tension. And yet they still arrive with frets that are sometimes not level.
  • Gibson's finish reacts with chemicals, reacts with solvents, reacts with some materials, reacts with moisture, cracks, checks, disintegrates, discolors, flakes and releases nitric and sulfuric acids which can etch and corrode nearby metals. Agile's does none of that, and does a better job of protecting the guitar.

So explain what you're on about, eh?

Yes they are made of cheaper materials:
Agiles tend to have 3+piece bodies (for the most part)
Even most Studio faded Gibsons are 2-3 pieces
Gibson is made with better hardware as a standard not an upgrade.
The Gibson head stock angle is a touchy subject. Yes it is weak, no it is not wrong or inferior. It has worked for 60+ yrs now. could it be inproved, yes but most Gibson purist would have a hissy fit.
Yes even Squires have a bit of hand finishing that is involved. Gibson is the only large Guitar Co. to use as much hands on building as they do in every model not just a few like others.
So you don't like a Nitro finish, that's fine, I can go with either. But the finish of a Gibson takes much longer to cure another reason for heftier prices.
Like I have previously said some people can not and will not justify the price of certain guitars. Others see it as full justifiable, which does your wallet say?

I have worked on a few Agile guitars and I can say that they are not bad at all, but IMO they are deff not up to par with Gibson.

Doesn't Samick make Agile?
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:26 PM   #99
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Yes, I am well aware as I've stated many times that I personally love the neck on the Studio Faded. I never made a definitive comparison to any other neck.

And yes, I know what 'bias' means, hence the correct use of the term.

I believe you have a guitar you like and I think that you are judging it too highly based on your unwillingness to look at the information accurately, because of what you paid for it, emotional attachment or whatever. This has created your bias.

Please try to refrain from patronising people or the discussion will turn from a discussion into an argument.
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Old 05-13-2013, 07:28 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Mephaphil
Yea okay. Agile, the guitar of kings.

My frets are level as were my previous Gibsons. I've never seen binding crack. Nitro>poly. It's not just the wood, it's the quality of the wood.

Who cares about the strings?

Do you think it's the same grade with the same expertise? Because it's not, it's not at all.


Okay, so you have absolutely nothing.

Ask Gary Brawer about the average $2K+ Gibson and the quality of level of its frets. The reason that Gibson owns PLEK machines is that they had such a bad reputation for fretwork that they needed to ride the coattails of PLEK's reputation for precision. Would you know level frets if you had them? How low is your action?

Go visit My Les Paul. You'll get to see binding that's cracked. Just because YOU haven't seen it doesn't mean that the rest of us haven't.

Sure Nitro>Poly. In Elven Mythology. Explain why the entire automotive industry dropped it sixty years ago. What, exactly, do you think is ">" about it? Explain why the EPA banned it. Back *something* about your assertions up.

What do you know about "quality" of wood? Can you point to anything at all that's better about the wood that Gibson uses?

Exactly how much expertise do you think is involved in producing a guitar? I've been through the Martin plant, the Gibson plant in Nashville, the Taylor and Carvin plants down in Escondido. I can run down to the Suhr production line in Lake Elsinore (it's just a couple miles down the road from my office). And I can run over to Fender Corona (the museum is across the parking lot from me). I have a ton of photographs of the Epi plant in Qindao. Can you explain to me two things that Gibson does that are different or better than any of those plants?
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