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Old 05-15-2013, 02:13 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by slap-a-bass
When somebody says they can get ****ed up and make music, it's because theyve trained themselves to be forced to do it.

it's generally because they're full of shit and are so full of shit that they're oblivious to the awful reality that is their playing

420 haha smoke weed live free drugs are cool everyone let's do drugs and be inspired because that's how music happens #YOLO
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Old 05-15-2013, 02:51 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by :-D
....[ ]....let's do drugs and be inspired because that's how music happens #YOLO
However cavalier and condescending you choose to be toward that, it's exactly what happened during the 60's and 70's. Do you suppose the Rolling Stones all have D.A.R.E. tags on their Rolls?


Artists were spokesmen for the counterculture, the voices of the counter culture, and lived as part of the counterculture. It was pretty hard not to be blocked up most of the time. Ostensibly, the music got cleaned up in the studio.

The fact remains, a great many of those stoners of old are still huge stars, and/or have retired to castles, while this generation of sanctimonious asses runs on about how it can't be done high, and getting nowhere in the process.

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Old 05-15-2013, 04:24 AM   #43
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i'll make a better post tomorrow when i'm awake, but for now i'll simply point out that the fact that there are a lot of people (referencing an entire generation is less than accurate) saying that drugs don't equal fabulous music doesn't immediately make them "sanctimonious asses"

to employ similar hyperbole, there's a generation of people who have been and are still under the impression that neil young's a fabulous guitar player. does this mean that everyone alive during the 60's and 70's is so hopelessly wrecked from drugs they've wandered around as vegetables for 40-50 years in a comatose state that rendered their ears useless?

probably not. different times, different general attitudes.
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Old 05-15-2013, 04:50 AM   #44
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Old 05-15-2013, 05:43 AM   #45
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zappa hated drugs

What a shame
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:05 AM   #46
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If it helps it helps if not...not. Why is this subject being stretched so hard?

Some people I have seen playing, I thought by myself, drink a beer or something, ur nervosity shows, and sounds not much different then being drunk.

I've played gigs being tired, sick, and having negative thoughts about rent or w/e, which also influence my playing.

A recording doesn't lie, people do.

This means even yourself. You know how many people who are 100% sober think they play well, but play shit?

Being drunk impairs you, but drinking a beer or smoking some weed or not is just 1 of the 100 variables that make or break your playing.
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Old 05-15-2013, 07:59 AM   #47
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What a shame


could you imagine 200 motels if he wasn't sober? jesus christ, i don't think i could handle that
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Old 05-15-2013, 10:24 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by :-D
i'll make a better post tomorrow when i'm awake, but for now i'll simply point out that the fact that there are a lot of people (referencing an entire generation is less than accurate) saying that drugs don't equal fabulous music doesn't immediately make them "sanctimonious asses"
One of the most disturbing / entertaining things about UG, is making a generalization, and letting the feedback wash over you. People just don't tolerate dogma well. TBH the hip era had its stoners and not, but some of the doped up guys did succeed wildy
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Originally Posted by :-D
to employ similar hyperbole, there's a generation of people who have been and are still under the impression that neil young's a fabulous guitar player.
I an actually able to tolerate his guitar playing more so than the effeminate caterwauling he tries to pass off as singing. But for me, Neil Young is a baby that can stand to be thrown out with the bathwater.
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does this mean that everyone alive during the 60's and 70's is so hopelessly wrecked from drugs they've wandered around as vegetables for 40-50 years in a comatose state that rendered their ears useless?

probably not. different times, different general attitudes.
David Crosby, (recipient of as liver transplant) said, "the only thing we were wrong about was the recreational drug use", of the hip generation's overall social outlook....

There were quite a few stoned guitarists who didn't receive credit for being as listenable as they were, Jerry Gracia (*) and Paul Kantner come to mind.

Alex Lifeson of "Rush" stated in GP magazine, our show is complicated to the point where we can't go and do it successfully impaired in any way". (loose quote).

John MacLaughlin certainly had the chops, but didn't interest me,. The Eagles were simpler but did, and goodness knows, a few of them had run ins with intoxicants.

So, to sum it up, you become a "sanctimonious ass" when you preach too devoutly, on either side of the issue. That's a generalization intended to be taken with a grain of self appraisal, and if the "shoe doesn't fit", you're probably better off ignoring it.

(*) Truth to tell, I can only abide one side of one Grateful Dead album, side one of "Workingman's Dead". Other than that, I think to myself, wow, great lick", then change the channel...

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Old 05-17-2013, 11:09 PM   #49
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Re: professionalism - Let's run with one of those arguments above. The doctor who is in charge of your liver transplant comes in. He's had a couple of beers and joint or two. No matter. It calms him down and makes him work better because he deals with the stress better. A more relaxed doctor is less likely to make mistakes. How do you feel about "professionalism" now? If he/she isn't up to the task sober, then he/she is just not a good doctor. Period. IMHO.

Fact: alcohol is a depressant. It slows down reaction time, coordination, and dulls the senses. That's fine. Who needs coordination and a sense of precision hearing when you are playing a gig? Oh, yeah.... pretty well anyone does. You might think you're a better driver after a few beers, but the reality is born out in the overwhelming statistics that, basically, you're just many, many more times likely to screw up and crash the car.

And sure, people can find all the anecdotal exceptions they want. Yeah, we all know someone who spent a life time smoking a pack a day who never got cancer, either, but statistically again, it's pretty common knowledge that there is a definite correlation.

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Old 05-17-2013, 11:50 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by axemanchris
Re: professionalism - Let's run with one of those arguments above. The doctor who is in charge of your liver transplant comes in. He's had a couple of beers and joint or two. No matter. It calms him down and makes him work better because he deals with the stress better. A more relaxed doctor is less likely to make mistakes. How do you feel about "professionalism" now? If he/she isn't up to the task sober, then he/she is just not a good doctor. Period. IMHO.
Oh, really? When was the last time a band you played with, either saved someone's life, or performed brain surgery at a Saturday night cover gig in front of a room full of drunks.?

You're massively over estimating your own worth, your job description, and your contribution to society....Period.

John Lennon ironically observed, "our band is more popular than God", and practically got "stoned" to death for it. Like I said before, the stoners of the 70's are off living in castles earned, at least in part, from playing stoned. While the sanctimonious asses of UG are here concocting bizarre analogs to satisfy a need to overcompensate because of not having a stadium to play today.

Do you think a cross section of "The Dead Heads", are either qualified to sit on a medical review board, or are sober"?

The idea behind music is in large part to give release from the harsh reality of everyday life. So, if the audience is satisfied with the results, it really doesn't matter if the performance passes muster anyplace else but where, when, and with whom it happened.

Why not stick to comparing apples to apples, instead of oranges to opium poppies.


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Old 05-18-2013, 10:39 AM   #51
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Fact: alcohol is a depressant. It slows down reaction time, coordination, and dulls the senses.
CT


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Old 05-18-2013, 03:48 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Captaincranky
Oh, really? When was the last time a band you played with, either saved someone's life, or performed brain surgery at a Saturday night cover gig in front of a room full of drunks.?

The idea behind music is in large part to give release from the harsh reality of everyday life. So, if the audience is satisfied with the results, it really doesn't matter if the performance passes muster anyplace else but where, when, and with whom it happened.


And people pay to receive this release from the performer. A musician isn't 'sacred', they're employed by their fans at the end of the day, it's completely disrespectful to come on after drinking or taking drugs. I would not hesitate to kick a member of my band out on the spot if they were found taking drugs or drinking before a show. If you're fine getting drunk and playing a poorly executed cover gig to a pub, go right ahead, if you want to be any kind of success in your life, you do your job and do it well.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:50 PM   #53
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Old 05-18-2013, 09:05 PM   #54
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And people pay to receive this release from the performer. A musician isn't 'sacred', they're employed by their fans at the end of the day, it's completely disrespectful to come on after drinking or taking drugs. I would not hesitate to kick a member of my band out on the spot if they were found taking drugs or drinking before a show. If you're fine getting drunk and playing a poorly executed cover gig to a pub, go right ahead, if you want to be any kind of success in your life, you do your job and do it well.
And that's your prerogative to kick a stoner out of "your" band.

Still, everybody keeps missing the point, erstwhile spouting anti drug dogma. Jimi Hendrix died of an overdose. Keith Richards has probably a hundred times the bank account of any of the self righteous posters to this thread.

But for the sake of equal time. Yes, Jim Morrison absolutely took it way too far.

Heroine and booze have been the musician's constant companion for centuries. Pour us a tankard of ale and crack out the lute, will ya? Do you think decades of blues and jazz musicians were teetotalers and elected officers of their hometown PTAs?

Just answer this question, "are you better than Hendrix or Richards"? Because to hear you \preach, you sure should be. (And richer as well).

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Old 05-19-2013, 12:16 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Captaincranky
John Lennon ironically observed, "our band is more popular than God", and practically got "stoned" to death for it. Like I said before, the stoners of the 70's are off living in castles earned, at least in part, from playing stoned. While the sanctimonious asses of UG are here concocting bizarre analogs to satisfy a need to overcompensate because of not having a stadium to play today.

Actually, most of the stoners of the '60s and '70s are either dead or broke.

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And that's your prerogative to kick a stoner out of "your" band.

Still, everybody keeps missing the point, erstwhile spouting anti drug dogma. Jimi Hendrix died of an overdose. Keith Richards has probably a hundred times the bank account of any of the self righteous posters to this thread.

But for the sake of equal time. Yes, Jim Morrison absolutely took it way too far.

Heroine and booze have been the musician's constant companion for centuries. Pour us a tankard of ale and crack out the lute, will ya? Do you think decades of blues and jazz musicians were teetotalers and elected officers of their hometown PTAs?

Just answer this question, "are you better than Hendrix or Richards"? Because to hear you \preach, you sure should be. (And richer as well).

So, your argument as to why it's ok for musicians to do drugs/alcohol before a show is that musicians have been doing drugs for generations?


Ok, how about this then? Humans have been killing each other for generations, why should it be an issue if we kill each other? Seriously, the whole "we've been doing it for decades" argument is just bad logic.
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:39 AM   #56
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:00 AM   #57
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Actually, most of the stoners of the '60s and '70s are either dead or broke.
And the Rolling Stones just went on their 50th anniversary tour. Joe Walsh feels compelled to tell his audience of his triumph over alcohol. David Crosby had a liver transplant, while both Sunny Bono and John Denver were killed in ways not related to intoxicants.


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So, your argument as to why it's ok for musicians to do drugs/alcohol before a show is that musicians have been doing drugs for generations?
Well where there's smoke, there's fire. When you come right down to it, you shouldn't be playing material live that you can't do comfortably in practice. Since that would exclude the hardest pieces you know, there should be a little leeway in faculty that you have as overhead, or that you could stand to lose without too much in the way of performance penalty.

Bob Dylan said, "but I was so much older then, I'm younger that that now. I've always taken that to mean his views were more rigid and idealistic, and that the compromises that have to be made to get by in this world, made him feel younger and less resolute. (Hey, I could have that all wrong).

TBH, I'm not arguing a musician has to do drugs or drink, or even should. I'm just getting progressively sick of listening to social outrage, indignation and the hyperbolic idealistic onslaught this thread has worked itself into a lather about.

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Ok, how about this then? Humans have been killing each other for generations, why should it be an issue if we kill each other? Seriously, the whole "we've been doing it for decades" argument is just bad logic.
This is the pure, off topic, unrelated crap I'm talking about. Man wasn't made in God's image, get over it. Man is simply the most systematic, most vicious, successful predator to ever inhabit this planet. A crap species that kills for sport, and can't really allow other creatures the dignity of a peaceful natural existence.

So, death, taxes, cannibalism, and ritual human sacrifice have all played pivotal roles in many cultures through the ages. The Spanish Inquisition really happened, and wasn't officially ended until the late 1830's. The Colosseum is still standing in Rome, and there's a few smokestacks left at Auschwitz.

What you feel compelled to call, "bad logic", is what I've come to accept as "immutable truth". (I know, that is a big downer).

If I really felt like listening to this spiel, "I want to promote world peace, fight addiction, and uphold the ideals of the "Miss America Pageant", I'd have recorded it for later and played it back, like right about now.

Right or wrong, people get stoned, and people kill each other, in the name of God, country, for general principles, or simply because they can. It isn't logical, it just is. I think it's generally excused by calling it, "human nature".

But, none of that has much to do with how each individual performer should comport him or herself, does it?

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Old 05-19-2013, 03:18 AM   #58
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And the Rolling Stones just went on their 50th anniversary tour. Joe Walsh feels compelled to tell his audience of his triumph over alcohol. David Crosby had a liver transplant, while both Sunny Bono and John Denver were killed in ways not related to intoxicants.


And yet, it doesn't matter. Because my point still stands. Btw, all of those bands/artists have gone way downhill since the '60s and '70s. All of them are living on their laurels (or are dead, whether drugs had a thing to do with it or not). The Stones and Areosmith are pretty much the only bands that still make a living off of their music from the '70s. And none of the guys in those bands are "all right" in a medical sense.

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Well where there's smoke, there's fire. When you come right down to it, you shouldn't be playing material live that you can't do comfortably in practice. Since that would exclude the hardest pieces you know, there should be a little leeway in faculty that you have as overhead, or that you could stand to lose without too much in the way of performance penalty.


I feel like this is obvious and didn't even need to be said...

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Bob Dylan said, "but I was so much older then, I'm younger that that now. I've always taken that to mean his views were more rigid and idealistic, and that the compromises that have to be made to get by in this world, made him feel younger and less resolute. (Hey, I could have that all wrong).


Are you making a bad attempt at pointing to an authority?

Quote:
TBH, I'm not arguing a musician has to do drugs or drink, or even should. I'm just getting progressively sick of listening to social outrage, indignation and the hyperbolic idealistic onslaught this thread has worked itself into a lather about.




Quote:
This is the pure, off topic, unrelated crap I'm talking about. Man wasn't made in God's image, get over it. Man is simply the most systematic, most vicious, successful predator to ever inhabit this planet. A crap species that kills for sport, and can't really allow other creatures the dignity of a peaceful natural existence.

So, death, taxes, cannibalism, and ritual human sacrifice have all played pivotal roles in many cultures through the ages. The Spanish Inquisition really happened, and wasn't officially ended until the late 1830's. The Colosseum is still standing in Rome, and there's a few smokestacks left at Auschwitz.

What you feel compelled to call, "bad logic", is what I've come to accept as "immutable truth". (I know, that is a big downer).

If I really felt like listening to this spiel, "I want to promote world peace, fight addiction, and uphold the ideals of the "Miss America Pageant", I'd have recorded it for later and played it back, like right about now.

Right or wrong, people get stoned, and people kill each other, in the name of God, country, for general principles, or simply because they can. It isn't logical, it just is. I think it's generally excused by calling it, "human nature".

But, none of that has much to do with how each individual performer should comport him or herself, does it?
Are you just spouting off nonsense here in an attempt to "drop a knowledge bomb" on us? Because you're literally all over the place with your arguments here, and (as a result) you don't prove a damn thing. So, do come back when you can form a coherent argument. I've come to the conclusion that you missed my original point completely and figured you'd fire back in self-righteous indignation, busting out all of your limited historical examples of human atrocity in an attempt to prove that somehow you're right.

Edit:
Here's my original point, btw: just because a bunch of musicians have been doing drugs and alcohol before performances, that does NOT make it ok. You made a very bad attempt at pointing to an unnamed authority. You're trying to say that because others have done it, it's ok. Well, if the others jump off a bridge, would you follow them? No? Moving on then...

I don't care if you think it's ok. Fact is, whether you like it or not, it IS unprofessional to take drugs or drink before performing in front of a crowd that paid to come see you. I don't care how many other musicians got high before a show; they acted unprofessional by doing so, even if they still could perform. Being a full-time musician and performer is a job, and one should act in a professional manner while doing said job. End of story.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:19 AM   #59
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m8 dis 1 tym me n da lads got fookin smashed m8 yer get me wuz fookin trollied off triple VKs at wethurspoons n den we get to da club n i knock bak about 5 jagerbombs n den dis burd was givin me the eye lyk n so i fookin got ma geetar out n played sum ****in sweeps n shit n she wer lyk propa luvin it n l8er on i tuk 'er bak to myn n smashed her bk doors in yer get me n den i pluggd in my strat and playd eruption at twice da normal speed wifout any mistakes u jus aint got wat it takes 2 be aswel as me wen ur drunk m8 pro tip jus dont drink if u wana play geetar 2 get birds bruv no wat im sayin?

n den dat bish txt me sayin she got da clap n i fort o well at least i got 2 clapta dem cheeks amirite?

Win. Sweeps always get em man... always... not to mention playing that eruption thing twice the speed, frikking genius. I'll try that tomorrow.

Thread related: who gives a crap if they drink or get high. The audience knows that if they're fans of the band. If its your first gig and you're completely wasted... you'll only know if it was good or bad when/if you get a call back. But who cares? When you die, they somehow give you a candlelight vigil... as though you were so important when you were alive. They'll dis every follow up album from the one that made you famous, but yeah, when you die they all become important and your lyrics somehow change peoples lives... Hypocrisy. That is the human way.

Live your life however you see fit. Make changes if you feel you need to. Forget the professionalism crap. If it gets you to perform comfortably, then so be it. We could all only dream of the day crazysam is in our audience and respecting us as musicians/people... but until that day, just do what you need to do. End of story.

Not really the end of the story. Moral high ground is for people taking 10 years to record their e.p. For the rest of the musicians/people... don't forget to live. Even if it's only for a day. Candlelight vigil... remember?
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:29 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax

So, your argument as to why it's ok for musicians to do drugs/alcohol before a show is that musicians have been doing drugs for generations?


Ok, how about this then? Humans have been killing each other for generations, why should it be an issue if we kill each other? Seriously, the whole "we've been doing it for decades" argument is just bad logic.
These are two unrelated topics. Musicians get stoned, humans kill other humans. In fact, it's not an issue if we kill one another. It's an issue in the US maybe. Somewhere at any given time, there are tribal purges and genocides going in Sub-Saharan Africa. Millions die, it has nothing to do with whether or not a musician decides to get stoned while he or she plays.

There's a -1 negative correlation. It's off topic

Let it go mo, you don't make any sense.

I simply don't care who is stoned when they play, and who isn't. As for the Stones or other old rockers not being medically "all right", who the hell is when they're in their seventies? You sure as hell don't know anything about being 70, do you?

In any case, the drug use generated a whole lot of the music of the 70's. Like say, "White Rabbit", and how about "Mr. Tambourine Man". It would be difficult to separate the two.

The Beatles went through a heroine phase, I pretty sure during the "White Album" period. I don't care for the white album, many people think it's one of their best. Do I not like it because they were on drugs? Maybe. Because they were on different drugs from the ones I was used to listening to them on? Maybe.

As to whether the bands of the 70's are washed up, perhaps they are. On their worst days, they're still a whole lot better than the "channel changers" like "Dead Sarah" that Jimmy Kimmel tries to pawn off on you as "music".

In any case, George Harrison died of cancer, not an overdose, which is only an occupational hazard of living as long as he did. John Lennon was shot to death. Again, not his use of drugs related.

Every psychotropic drug has a distinct state of consciousness associated with it. It that state of mind resonates from a musician to his audience who approves or is in the same state, then what? Lou Reed did a lot of smack, he had a following in that community. The "Velvet Underground" was pretty much all about heroine. Ostensibly he's doing better now. Don't know, don't care.

I vote with my wallet. I buy the music I like, and don't by the music I don't. I have an abundant lack of interest in the musician's lifestyle, or what condition they were in when they made the music. I turn all the "OMG Insider" and "Access Hollywood" garbage off. I don't care about the factory, only the product. I don't care what drugs Stevie Nicks took, or who she was banging in the band. If I like her music, I buy it. If she's all hoarse from snorting coke and screaming at the end of a 6 month tour, I skip the live album. Try and get this through your head.

Now, go find a pulpit and preach to somebody else. And save all of the irrelevant, bizarre analogs for somebody that does care, or might possibly be impressed with them.

I'm a sociopath, I don't care who's high, or who dies.

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