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Old 05-21-2013, 07:59 AM   #1
AngryIndianDude
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Unhappy Need a new metal cab + some advice to parents

Hi all,
I intend to get a new amp for metal. At the minute, I cannot allow my guitar to sing. I'm running a Spider 3 75 watt modelling amp, with active pickups which is already not preferable. The tones as you know are pretty horrid and it's scoring not even 6/10's on major guitar review sites. You've all written on all my other threads when I'm asking "should I get this pedal?" with 200+ comments screaming that I shouldn't and I'm throwing good pedals at BS amp, I got the picture and I gotta get myself at least a very very entry level cab, but with luck something nicer.

The reason why I bought it was because I was starting guitar, I needed to emulate lots of different sounds and for a starter price for <£200 it was ideal really. However 5 years of playing down the line I need to get rid of this thing, but it's going to be tough, no not financially but through justifying the spending on a new rig.

This amp is really tying me back. Plus it's not one you can throw pedals in front of. I do need to get a new amp but I really don't know how to explain to non-guitar players, that being my parents, why I should get a new one, and why several hundred pounds or probably even more for what's considered a medium quality metal stack is actually justifiable.

I would like to get the opinions of you veterans to see how I could persuade them. I already showed them a JCM800 on Pod Farm and how heavenly even an emulation of a killer amp sounds like, and you can really hear the difference but that obviously is not enough. I think I'd have to show them a real cab at a store.

I've got to a great shred standard, I gotta get rid of this amp that's really really really holding me back. I can't really progress if I get the most muddy tone where I can't hear my own notes, plus I can't use pedals atm because they just won't work with this amp at all. Live? This thing sounds so ugly. It's just mushy, once the volume is past 4 it just is bass (low-ends very exaggerated).

How can I explain that I "need" to get a new amp and that just because it has a different "sound" is not the only reason? Dad thought this was a prize of an amp, in terms of value and expansion yes of course, but it's not something I can keep (maybe for practises sure, but for the aspiring player I can't get any further).

Please help me explain that this really isn't any good for what I'm using it for! Thanks.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:24 AM   #2
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First of all, are you worried that your parents will have their feelings hurt because you don't want the amp anymore and you want another one, or do you just want them to fork out their cash for a new amp and stack and trying to find a way to justify it?

Second, are you gigging? If not, and you live with your parents, you damn sure don't need a stack. Hell, you'll never be able to really enjoy it, especially if it's a JCM800 where it shines where it's cranked. Matter of fact, there's not a lot of tube amps you'd be able to enjoy without cranking them at least a little bit and by the time, your parents usually want you to turn the damn thing off altogether instead of down. I'd say your best bet is to try and get some kind of combo and as fate has it, Laney just realized a small Tony Iommi 15 watt tube amp that sounds pretty decent.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:26 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AsOneIStand
First of all, are you worried that your parents will have their feelings hurt because you don't want the amp anymore and you want another one, or do you just want them to fork out their cash for a new amp and stack and trying to find a way to justify it?

Second, are you gigging? If not, and you live with your parents, you damn sure don't need a stack. Hell, you'll never be able to really enjoy it, especially if it's a JCM800 where it shines where it's cranked. Matter of fact, there's not a lot of tube amps you'd be able to enjoy without cranking them at least a little bit and by the time, your parents usually want you to turn the damn thing off altogether instead of down. I'd say your best bet is to try and get some kind of combo and as fate has it, Laney just realized a small Tony Iommi 15 watt tube amp that sounds pretty decent.


Hey, not really worried about their feelings as there is no attachment, its just forking out on it. And yes, I intend to gig, about the JCM800 NONONO I AM NOT WORTHY I JUST WAS SHOWING WHAT A CAB COULD SOUND LIKE! I am talking about reasonably priced cabs, eg. peavey valveking (£400) or a jet city setup with cab for £350 or a laney ironheart (just over £500)

Sorry for not giving the right idea. I need more than low wattage.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:32 AM   #4
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Have you told them everything you just told us?

Get them to look at it this way: When you were a kid, you probably had a bike. They probably spent a lot of money on that bike so you could learn to ride, but eventually you outgrew it and needed a new bike, with different gears, better brakes, possibly even suspension.

That is exactly what has happened with your amp. Your Spider was good to learn on, but you've outgrown it and need to get a real amp.
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Old 05-21-2013, 08:49 AM   #5
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I can't see how you can justify having a stack in the house, for example you wouldn't be able to get a JCM800 + Cab sounding anywhere near as good as it deserves without mad vibrations through the whole house and neighbours complaining. If you're in a band and gonna use it live then you have an excuse, but not because you want a bigger/better amp to practice with.

The wattage you have doesn't really matter, I went from a 120w Peavey 5150 to a 35w Cornford Hellcat, as my main live amp. Now the higher the wattage with a valve amp the more difficult its going to be to get it sounding great in the house. My only 35 watt Cornford sounds like shit on the lowest volume, and you turn the volume up and not much happens until 1 point when it goes from almost nothing to fairly loud, nothing inbetween and then it sounds great but it's decently loud at that point, perhaps louder than you would want for practicing and a lot of valve amps are like this.

So for house usage a powerful valve amp is really not the best idea, not if you have grumpy parents. If you want to argue your point I think you should go down the "playing live" route of arguement, those Spiders sound like turd live and don't cut through the mix at all, like a buzzing box of bees and that aint too cool.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:31 AM   #6
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I have to ask you one thing: do you know what is a cab? It's a box with speakers. To use it you also need an amp head. You can get good sounds from a combo amplifier, you don't have to buy some ****ing big amp and cab and occupy half of your house with it to sound good. For playing at home, rehearsals and small gigs with the band - tube combo amp can be loud enough and sound good.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:48 AM   #7
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The amount of bad, or worse, false, advice in this thread already is astounding.

What, exactly, is your intent for the new amp? (Gigging, practice, both?) What specific tone(s) are you looking for? An amp is not a 'one size fits all' tool, so give us enough information to allow us to help you get what you really need.

Ignore all the nonsense about wattage, low volume tone etc. above, let's figure out what you're really after and then we can help you explain to your parents why you need it.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:55 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arby911
The amount of bad, or worse, false, advice in this thread already is astounding.

What, exactly, is your intent for the new amp? (Gigging, practice, both?) What specific tone(s) are you looking for? An amp is not a 'one size fits all' tool, so give us enough information to allow us to help you get what you really need.

Ignore all the nonsense about wattage, low volume tone etc. above, let's figure out what you're really after and then we can help you explain to your parents why you need it.


How is the wattage nonsense? You're telling him that a 100w stack is going to be fine in the house and sound its best? Are his parents going to appreciate him buying an amp that has a volume knob that goes from off to loud with nothing inbetween? Plenty of valve amps like that.

The only reason to justify him having an amp like that is to use it for gigging live. If playing loud isn't an issue for the parents then that makes it easier, but the justification should still be playing live, since there is no need for such a massive amp in the house.
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Old 05-21-2013, 10:34 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbazz
How is the wattage nonsense? You're telling him that a 100w stack is going to be fine in the house and sound its best? Are his parents going to appreciate him buying an amp that has a volume knob that goes from off to loud with nothing inbetween? Plenty of valve amps like that.

The only reason to justify him having an amp like that is to use it for gigging live. If playing loud isn't an issue for the parents then that makes it easier, but the justification should still be playing live, since there is no need for such a massive amp in the house.


Stop. Just Stop.

You've already made it abundantly clear you don't understand the relationship between wattage and volume, nor the relationship between sonic quality and wattage, so how about you quit while you're behind?

I didn't say any of the things you attribute to me above, that's your own sense of guilt projecting, so step off. Fight those straw men on your own time, I'm trying to help the TS.
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Old 05-21-2013, 11:12 AM   #10
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I recommend a JCA22H head and a Harley Benton 212 cab. The crunch channel is actually the clean but the cleans aren't too great.

If you think you need more get the JCA 100HDM which has a 50 and 100 watts switch.

Jet City Amplification is a great company and a lot of their amps like the one I linked are designed by Soldano. Their amps are very good budget amps, I tested and ordered the 100HDM myself.

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Old 05-21-2013, 01:02 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arby911
Stop. Just Stop.

You've already made it abundantly clear you don't understand the relationship between wattage and volume, nor the relationship between sonic quality and wattage, so how about you quit while you're behind?

I didn't say any of the things you attribute to me above, that's your own sense of guilt projecting, so step off. Fight those straw men on your own time, I'm trying to help the TS.


You get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? I haven't made anything abundantly clear. Before you jump in and make assumptions about my knowledge, how about you go cool off and then come back when you arent in a stinking bad mood.

You're talking about theory, I'm talking about reality. The reality is that a 100w stack is completely unnecessary for the house, and many of them (high wattage valve amps) go from off to loud without much of anything between.

This is reality. Now go cool off before you reply back to me.
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:09 PM   #12
Arby911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbazz
You get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? I haven't made anything abundantly clear. Before you jump in and make assumptions about my knowledge, how about you go cool off and then come back when you arent in a stinking bad mood.

You're talking about theory, I'm talking about reality. The reality is that a 100w stack is completely unnecessary for the house, and many of them go from off to loud without much of anything between.

This is reality. Now go cool off before you reply back to me.


'Unnecessary' is a subjective opinion, and your version of reality isn't entirely supportable by fact. Sure, there are some heads that require significant volume to sound good, but there are also a lot that don't.

I'm not talking about theory, I'm talking about you pimping long-debunked false opinion as gospel truth. I'm not mad, not even moderately upset, I've just seen this nonsense so many times that I call it as it is. You might consider that I didn't even call you out specifically, you came to me...

If your mind isn't completely closed, start here...

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/foru...d.php?t=1571081
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arby911
'Unnecessary' is a subjective opinion, and your version of reality isn't entirely supportable by fact. Sure, there are some heads that require significant volume to sound good, but there are also a lot that don't.

I'm not talking about theory, I'm talking about you pimping long-debunked false opinion as gospel truth. I'm not mad, not even moderately upset, I've just seen this nonsense so many times that I call it as it is. You might consider that I didn't even call you out specifically, you came to me...

If your mind isn't completely closed, start here...

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/foru...d.php?t=1571081


You're talking to someone here who has been playing guitar for 12 years, with a music technology degree, owns near £10000 in guitar equipment, records/produces bands, has made money out of organising live music shows and has toured the UK playing in a live band, I'm not just some clueless kid in his bedroom talking shit. But I also don't need to talk in theory terms to understand what I know about the amps I've tried, I'm not saying it is gospel that every 100w valve amp is going to be too loud for bedroom use, but a lot of them are if you have complaining parents.

When I was younger living at my old house, my Peavey 5150 was just a whisper at 0 volume, and before it got to 1 volume it had already gone from basically inaudable to being loud enough that my mother would be complaining.

A lot of amps are like this, including some of the lower powered 30-50w amps that I've played (including my 35w Hellcat), and like I said if his parents are fine with that then that is ok, at the end of the day though for home use it's hard to really justify such a big amp for just practicing, if the guy intends to play live then absolutely there is a place for it, but not just for practicing his shredding chops in the house.

If anything his arguement should be to replace the Spider because it sounds shite, especially if he's using it live with a band.
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:46 PM   #14
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You're both right. No one needs a stack for bedroom playing, but a stack can still be used for bedroom playing, and many people do. My old B-52 100w halfstack was my bedroom amp for a little while when I was between bands, and it worked just fine.

On topic: How old are you, TS? If you're old enough to get a job, I say absolutely do that and see if you can work out a deal with your parents to where you each pay for half. That will show determination on your part, and if you're willing to work for it, they would probably be more inclined to help you out with it. Plus in the end when you're jamming on your nice new amp, it will feel very satisfying that you worked hard to get it.

Edit: This is what I did, but with a car. I got a job when I turned 15 and saved up for a year and a half for an old Ford Ranger. Was it the nicest car in the school parking lot? Not by a long-shot, but it was mine and I worked hard for it.

Edit #2: I hope you mean to get an amp along with the cab...

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Old 05-21-2013, 02:53 PM   #15
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I would personally suggest a combo, while people have said that you can or cannot use a half stack for bedroom playing;
the portability of it may be an issue, although that can be down to what cab you have.
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Old 05-21-2013, 02:57 PM   #16
Arby911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigbazz
You're talking to someone here who has been playing guitar for 12 years, with a music technology degree, owns near £10000 in guitar equipment, records/produces bands, has made money out of organising live music shows and has toured the UK playing in a live band, I'm not just some clueless kid in his bedroom talking shit. But I also don't need to talk in theory terms to understand what I know about the amps I've tried, I'm not saying it is gospel that every 100w valve amp is going to be too loud for bedroom use, but a lot of them are if you have complaining parents.


Wonderful, you've got a big penis! If we're done measuring here, can I ask if you even bothered to read the link I gave you?

And I'll remind you yet again that you sought me out for this shitstorm, so don't act offended when you don't like the smell...

As for me, I'm still waiting for TS to answer the questions I posed, so I can hopefully give him some advice tailored to his needs.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:04 PM   #17
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:16 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Arby911
Wonderful, you've got a big penis! If we're done measuring here, can I ask if you even bothered to read the link I gave you?

And I'll remind you yet again that you sought me out for this shitstorm, so don't act offended when you don't like the smell...

As for me, I'm still waiting for TS to answer the questions I posed, so I can hopefully give him some advice tailored to his needs.


Oh you mean the "you don't know what your talking about read this link". Sometimes it is good to pull out ones measurements, When someone comes along with the angry big man internet expert routine especially.

Now go cool off before you reply to me or don't bother.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:26 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Bigbazz
Oh you mean the "you don't know what your talking about read this link". Sometimes it is good to pull out ones measurements, When someone comes along with the angry big man internet expert routine especially.

Now go cool off before you reply to me or don't bother.


Your measurements don't impress me, even if true you're at best a moderately sized fish in a small pond. I've found that people here are judged by their contribution, not their claims...

Did you read the link or not?

At this point you're mistaking amusement for anger, since I'm not sure how your claimed internet experience trumps mine, or anyone else's? Shall I make similar unsubstantiated claims so we're on equal footing?

You've not made me angry yet, nor likely do you have the capacity to do so.

Read the link, I'm curious as to your response.
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Old 05-21-2013, 03:35 PM   #20
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High wattage doesn't mean bad bedroom tones and low wattage doesn't mean good bedroom tones. I don't even think modern high wattage amps are meant to be cranked.

Lots of watts means only one thing: cleaner sound at higher volumes. Your power amp won't distort like it will on lower wattage amps played at the same volume. But no amp is going to give you power amp distortion at bedroom levels unless you have an attenuator. Even 1 watt amp is pretty loud cranked for bedroom use (it will at least make your parents bitch).

My Laney VC30 sounds like crap when the volume is at lower than 1. Then the volume suddenly increases a lot and the annoying fizz goes away. Some amps have that spot at higher levels like Marshall Vintage Modern that sounded like crap at low volume levels. But I don't think it has anything to do with wattage. I have tried a 100 watt JCM2000 and it sounded just fine at low volumes. Same with a 50 watt Engl Screamer.

I'm more satisfied with my tube amp at bedroom levels than I have been with the solid states and modeling amps I have tried. Tubes at low volume don't necessarily sound bad. So please people, don't give advice like "you won't be satisfied with a tube amp if you only use it at bedroom levels". My VC30 sounds better at bedroom levels than any solid state or modeling amp I have tried.

Oh, and metal amps are usually high wattage because metal sound usually relies more on pre amp than power amp distortion.
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