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Old 06-30-2013, 06:01 PM   #1
Ninja0King
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Bi-Amping for wide range guitars.

Hey guys,

I play primarily 7-string. Live, I play into a Line 6 Pod HD500 run through the effects loop of a Bugera 333 Infinium and into a Kustom 4x12. I use the same setup when recording, but from my line out directly to recording software which runs the cab simulation. I noticed that my recorded sound, when played on a nice audio system, sounded absolutely killer compared to out of my cab. I'm fairly sure this is because of the Cab lacking the girthy, fat bottom end subwoofers provide. My band currently plays without a bassist - and call my crazy, but I'm considering switching to a 10 string to fill in an occasional bass line and basically play lead guitar/bassist. Even if I stick with the 7, there's definitely something missing with my live sound.

What would be the easiest way to get some of that bottom end without spending too much? I feel like I'd need some sort of splitter device that could do a high pass on one output and a low pass on the other, and shoot each signal to the appropriate speaker.
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:36 PM   #2
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I'm not sure what he's doing exactly, but take a look at how Charlie Hunter has his stuff set up:

He's got pickups for both his 3 low bass (as in bass guitar) strings, and 4 higher treble (guitar) strings, put through 2 different amps. He does play in a weird tuning that accommodates to that particular set-up though.
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Old 06-30-2013, 07:34 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AWACS
I'm not sure what he's doing exactly, but take a look at how Charlie Hunter has his stuff set up: [Charlie Hunter]

He's got pickups for both his 3 low bass (as in bass guitar) strings, and 4 higher treble (guitar) strings, put through 2 different amps. He does play in a weird tuning that accommodates to that particular set-up though.


But that means TS would have to completely alter his playing style. You could always slap down a bass MIDI and then put it throught some VSTs and use that live/recording?
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Old 06-30-2013, 08:04 PM   #4
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I guess it depends how much bass guitar TS wants in his songs. I'm going to be that guy, but why not just find a bassist? Unless your band is playing some kind of Norwegian tech-death-black-white-sludge metal at 220bpm.







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Old 07-01-2013, 12:26 AM   #5
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How about using a bass cab as well as your 4x12? Like a 4x10 or 1x15. A lot of doom metal players do this to add more low end.
A speaker change in the 4x12 may help, as well.

Edit: Also, what sort of music are you playing?
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Old 07-01-2013, 06:30 PM   #6
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Bi-Amping is much more common in the bass world, and as a bassist I can tell you that most of us have come to hate it. Playing live, it never seems to deliver the promised balance and clarity between the low and the high-to-mid ranges. It is also a royal pain in the ass to set up such a rig if you switch instruments during your gig.

If you want to try it, you'll need two amplifiers (or a two-channel, splittable amp) and a crossover device to select the frequencies at which the bi-amping takes place. Remember that your guitar is never going to be a bass, so try out any bass rig you are thinking about before you put down any cash. You may decide it doesn't deliver what you need.

Frankly, I'd look at a few things before going for a bi-amped rig. Start by checking out BBE's Sonic Stomp; either the pedal or the rackmount. It can make quite a difference. If you seek to bring the various frequencies more "alive," take a look at Aphex's Aural Exciter. They make a few models of it - stomp box and rackmount. This thing used to be a staple in recording stuidos (maybe it still is?) and a lot of people have taken to using it live. Either one would be cheaper and easier to use than a bi-amped rig.

Whichever way you go, I wish you luck!
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:03 PM   #7
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Add a 2x15 to your rig, have one speaker output go to the 412 and one go to the 215. Don't go and make it way more complicated than it needs to be. Your amp has two speaker outputs, right? most do.

What speakers does your Kustom have? Probably not great ones, I'd assume.

Find a used Line 6 Vetta/Spider Valve 412 (I'm assuming you're on a relatively low budget) with V30s, that might fix your problem on it's own. Other good cheap cabs to look out for: Marshall 1960AV/BV, Crate Blue Voodoo 412 (don't know a lot about this, some had V30s, some didn't).

What cab are you emulating on your PC?

This is what I'm talking about. Best value cabs on the market IMO. http://www.guitarcenter.com/-i3175886.gc
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:34 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
My band currently plays without a bassist - and call my crazy, but I'm considering switching to a 10 string to fill in an occasional bass line and basically play lead guitar/bassist.


Don't. Seriously, just don't. You need to either have a bass player all the time or never have one and find some way to compensate. There's a local band around my uni who have a bass player who also does synth and every time he does a synth part the bottom end is noticeably missing from the band.

As much as anything else as well; you won't ever get that bass sound out of a guitar rig. Guitar amps and even guitars through bass amps just don't sound the same; you need the extra scale length and bigger strings combined with the lower tuning to get the sound people recognise as being bass. The guitar simply does not produce the range of frequencies you need, even with a massive boost to the low end.

If you really want to get more bass out of your live sound though, I would suggest looking in to a change of cab. I've played a variety of cabs over the years and even with the same speakers you can get vastly different response based on the rest of the cab. Try getting hold of something like a Marshall 1960a; that's a hell of a cab! Another thing you might want to try, if it applies, is taking the wheels off your cab or laying it on its side so it's in contact with the floor, that can help with the low end but like I said, it might not apply to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmaguire
How about using a bass cab as well as your 4x12? Like a 4x10 or 1x15. A lot of doom metal players do this to add more low end.


And the bass guitar is still fundamental to the sound. Have you ever heard a doom guitarist without a bass player? It's just nowhere near as full.
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:59 PM   #9
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Well do I have to be the guy to tell you your cab sucks? get a cab with K-100 or EV12M's or deal with the diffrence
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:46 PM   #10
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Its the Kustom 412 w/ Celestions. We've honestly never used a bassist actively and we've done fine. I'm not objective to having one, but its really never been a critical part of our sound. I was thinking about adding some subs to my rig, I just worry about possibly damaging my 4x12 cab with the extreme low ends. We play mostly Drop A, sometimes Drop G. Typically on long scale lengths, with strings specifically designed for the low register. My amp does have two output for cabs.

Lets not make this about why we should or should not have a bassist, or how a $1,000 cab would sound better than my $200 cab and if said cab sucks or not. The question is how can I improve my bottom end live and properly route the frequencies to different speakers/cabs without breaking the bank.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:00 PM   #11
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In that case, I think your best bet is: two amps and cabinets, a crossover to split the frequencies (standart bi-amp setup) and an Aphex Exciter or some such device to bring life to the low end of your guitar.
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Old 07-02-2013, 10:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
Lets not make this about why we should or should not have a bassist, or how a $1,000 cab would sound better than my $200 cab and if said cab sucks or not. The question is how can I improve my bottom end live and properly route the frequencies to different speakers/cabs without breaking the bank.


Your live sound would sound better if you weren't using a POS cab. That is the final stage before your signal hits our ears, you can't just ignore it/work around it. I don't know why you're so hellbent on doing all this weird shit and ignoring an obvious glaring flaw.
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Old 07-02-2013, 11:11 PM   #13
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Well if you have to have no bassiest look at the new Schecter 4x12 cabs with 3 V30's and a sub-woofer

But honestly come to grips your cab is a huge problem

And if you play with bassist you will see why they are an integral part of a "band" arrangement. Guitar is designed as a midrange instrument, and bass designed to carry the low end
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:02 AM   #14
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"Your live sound would sound better if you weren't using a POS cab. That is the final stage before your signal hits our ears, you can't just ignore it/work around it. I don't know why you're so hellbent on doing all this weird shit and ignoring an obvious glaring flaw."

I know that my cab is not the greatest by any means, but buying a $1000 cab to replace it is not a viable solution in my position. I've made that clear enough. Quite honestly, they're all just boxes of wood with speakers in them and I wouldn't pay that much for one if I did have the money.

My cab has 4 The Celestion Seventy 80 12" 80 Watt Speakers. I don't know so much about speakers to know whats "better" or "worse" than them, but I think calling them a POS might be a little extreme - especially since the 412MS that you use has Celestions in them, if I'm not mistaken.

I actually like how my cab sounds in its midrange. If you read the original post, you can see my question is regarding the extended range guitars, and the bass response, specifically.

SO. Lets try to be constructive.

Instead of criticizing my gear, lets talk about what can improve my bottom end *without* dropping a grand.
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:31 AM   #15
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Okay Woody Harrelson.
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:35 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by AWACS
I guess it depends how much bass guitar TS wants in his songs. I'm going to be that guy, but why not just find a bassist? Unless your band is playing some kind of Norwegian tech-death-black-white-sludge metal at 220bpm.









This, I see no benefit to bi-amping unless you have the money and just want to seem cool running two different amps. Simpler is always better...in most cases.
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Old 07-03-2013, 12:45 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
into a Kustom 4x12. .... compared to out of my cab..... I'm fairly sure this is because of the Cab

you answered your own question

you need a new cab

i get massive low end out of my current 212 cab and my old Avatar 212 cab

that is mainly due to speaker selection and cab construction

f the subwoofer idea
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:05 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
I know that my cab is not the greatest by any means, but buying a $1000 cab to replace it is not a viable solution in my position. I've made that clear enough. Quite honestly, they're all just boxes of wood with speakers in them and I wouldn't pay that much for one if I did have the money.

I actually like how my cab sounds in its midrange. If you read the original post, you can see my question is regarding the extended range guitars, and the bass response, specifically.

SO. Lets try to be constructive.

Instead of criticizing my gear, lets talk about what can improve my bottom end *without* dropping a grand.


(above edited by me)

They ARE trying to be constructive: in the battle between $$$ and physics, physics always wins.

If you can't find a bass player, you're better off saving your money to upgrade your amp than trying all these proposed workarounds. A better amp will, in all likelihood, extend the breadth and depth of tones you can deliver- important for getting that bass you seek.

I know it sucks that you can't do this right now, but them's the breaks. I'm in an analogous situation. My amp, while pretty good at letting me generate cool tones for blues, classic rock, new wave, jazz and other stuff, it is simply not capable of delivering the kinds of distorted tones I want for the heavier stuff I play. It won't mater what I do with what I have, a different amp will flat out be audibly superior for that purpose.

So I'm saving up for an Orange...or some such.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:13 AM   #19
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"you need a new cab"
Well lets be honest. A cab is just a wooden box with some speakers in it. There's nothing wrong with the wooden box I have already.
Could I achieve what I'm trying by swapping two of my speakers for G12K-100 s?
They run $125 each. I have a decent connection and can get them for less, so that would be an economical upgrade. I'm no audio tech, so I don't know if its okay to run to Seventy 80s along side to G12K-100 s in a 412.. They're both 8 ohms, but ones obviously 80 watts, the other is 100.
Is that feasible, and do you think there would be any issues, or improvement in sound at all?
"Okay Woody Harrelson"
I'm not getting the reference, but I'll take this as a compliment.
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Old 07-03-2013, 01:19 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
"you need a new cab"
Well lets be honest. A cab is just a wooden box with some speakers in it. There's nothing wrong with the wooden box I have already.
Could I achieve what I'm trying by swapping two of my speakers for G12K-100 s?
They run $125 each. I have a decent connection and can get them for less, so that would be an economical upgrade. I'm no audio tech, so I don't know if its okay to run to Seventy 80s along side to G12K-100 s in a 412.. They're both 8 ohms, but ones obviously 80 watts, the other is 100.
Is that feasible, and do you think there would be any issues, or improvement in sound at all?
"Okay Woody Harrelson"
I'm not getting the reference, but I'll take this as a compliment.


Lets be honest here. cheapest way to solve this problem is to hire a monkey to slap a 5 string bass in between you fantastic playing. I'm sure it will complement you quite nicely. Much cheaper than said 400 cab that doesn't suck donkey dick.

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