Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Instruments > Electric Guitar
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 07-03-2013, 04:32 AM   #21
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
 
Zaphod_Beeblebr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind a desk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
Quite honestly, they're all just boxes of wood with speakers in them and I wouldn't pay that much for one if I did have the money.

[...]

I actually like how my cab sounds in its midrange. If you read the original post, you can see my question is regarding the extended range guitars, and the bass response, specifically.

SO. Lets try to be constructive.

Instead of criticizing my gear, lets talk about what can improve my bottom end *without* dropping a grand.


You are beyond help.

People have given you the best advice we can and you are not accepting any of it. I will say this one more time:

You simply will not get the kind of extra breadth of frequencies you want from a guitar. The guitar itself, not the cab or the amp or any EQ wizardry, does not produce the kind of low end you want. You can't get the sound you want out of an 8 string tuned to E because the guitar as an instrument simply does not vibrate that way.

A new, better cab will bring the most immediate and cost-effective improvement to your sound. All the fancy EQ tricks and signal splitting in the world won't be able to improve the construction and materials of your cab.

Good day to you and good luck on your fools endeavor.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Ittei
Matters of small concern should be treated seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Foo
A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.

Zaphod_Beeblebr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 09:17 AM   #22
johnnykbop
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Come on just get a bassist. You don't consider it important to your sound? If that were at all true, you wouldn't be trying to set up an almost Rube Goldberg-esque not-bass to fill in for your lack of it.
johnnykbop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 09:45 AM   #23
Offworld92
One among the fence.
 
Offworld92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Southern California, USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
Could I achieve what I'm trying by swapping two of my speakers for G12K-100 s?
They run $125 each. I have a decent connection and can get them for less, so that would be an economical upgrade. I'm no audio tech, so I don't know if its okay to run to Seventy 80s along side to G12K-100 s in a 412.. They're both 8 ohms, but ones obviously 80 watts, the other is 100.
Is that feasible, and do you think there would be any issues, or improvement in sound at all?


Yes, that would help a lot.

But for less than the price of 4 K100s you could buy a used Line 6 SV cab, which I linked near the beginning of this thread, which you ignored. $300 for a GOOD cab with V30s, the industry standard speaker for all heavy and modern music.

Shit for the price of 4 K100s you can buy a used Mesa Rectifier 412, which IS the industry standard for all modern metal.

Good gear is not as expensive as you're trying to make it out to be.
__________________
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

Epiphone Firebird VII
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Peavey Predator USA
Ibanez RG520
Line 6 Pod HD500X
VHT Special 6 Ultra
Pedulz

Last edited by Offworld92 : 07-03-2013 at 09:46 AM.
Offworld92 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 10:02 AM   #24
311ZOSOVHJH
G G & A - B A B Y
 
311ZOSOVHJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Offline
A cab is more than just a box with speakers in it.

If that is your opinion then I pity the foo.

Maybe you should do some research on things like:

Dovetail joints
Void Free (wood)
Baffle construction
Speaker frequency response

I'm not saying the Krank cabs are bad but if you need more low-end then there are things you can do fix that. Usually, with 4x12s people try to tame the low end not add to is. Putting some K-100s in there is a good idea. Maybe try 2 for now in an 'X' pattern and go for there. The Seventy-80 speaker is OK but certainly not go-to speakers. Watts do not have to match up exactly but Ohms do. So if the ones you can try are 8 and you have 8's in there now then you should be good to go. Try it.
__________________

Last edited by 311ZOSOVHJH : 07-03-2013 at 01:21 PM.
311ZOSOVHJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 02:30 PM   #25
Nico the Great
Damned Icon
 
Nico the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
If you think a cab is nothing more than a "wooden box and some speakers" then you really need to re-evaluate your tone and your knowledge of acoustics. I'm not trying to be condescending, but cabs are very important. Think about it like this: the sound is being PRODUCED by the cab. If the thing that produces the sound isn't of high quality, it won't get the job done very well.

Also, seriously, get a bassist. You're not going to get the fullness you want by sending a 7 string through a bass cab. A 7 string won't touch the frequencies you need to get the sound you're after, and getting a 10 string would be stupid, unless you're a RIDICULOUSLY technical and talented player.
__________________
7 STRING LEGION

Damned Icon - Portraits of a Man EP

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYLrules88
im not very good with that harmonic thing. i get them to match perfectly then i play a chord and it sounds like hellen keller singing


Music Man
PRS
Mesa Boogie

Last edited by Nico the Great : 07-03-2013 at 02:34 PM.
Nico the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 03:00 PM   #26
dannyalcatraz
Registered User
 
dannyalcatraz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
A note on the 7- and 8- string thing:

Charlie Hunter DOES get a convincing bass tone out of his. But his are custom guitars, with the lower 2 or 3 strings being actual bass strings going through actual bass pickups and with 2 outputs, so the bass signal goes through actual bass amps.

IOW, he is effectively playing bass & guitar simultaneously.
__________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!
dannyalcatraz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 03:17 PM   #27
Nico the Great
Damned Icon
 
Nico the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyalcatraz
A note on the 7- and 8- string thing:

Charlie Hunter DOES get a convincing bass tone out of his. But his are custom guitars, with the lower 2 or 3 strings being actual bass strings going through actual bass pickups and with 2 outputs, so the bass signal goes through actual bass amps.

IOW, he is effectively playing bass & guitar simultaneously.

Right. This is an acceptable hybrid. If TS were to get an RG7321 (or something) and try this though, he wouldn't get nearly the same results.

(I know you know this, I'm just adding to the conversation )
__________________
7 STRING LEGION

Damned Icon - Portraits of a Man EP

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYLrules88
im not very good with that harmonic thing. i get them to match perfectly then i play a chord and it sounds like hellen keller singing


Music Man
PRS
Mesa Boogie
Nico the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 06:49 PM   #28
dannyalcatraz
Registered User
 
dannyalcatraz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
I know.

Just for the record, Wes Lambe is one of th luthiers who has built for Charlie Hunter. Here are the Wes Lambe guitars that are made to Charlie's specs:

http://www.wlguitars.com/8stringelectric

(You'll note those start around $2500.)
__________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!
dannyalcatraz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2013, 07:09 PM   #29
Robbgnarly
Registered User
 
Robbgnarly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NSB, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by 311ZOSOVHJH
I'm not saying the Krank cabs are bad but if you need more low-end then there are things you can do fix that.

It is a Kustom cab, Krank cabs are really good
__________________
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
Robbgnarly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 12:19 AM   #30
AWACS
I want all of the things
 
AWACS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The frozen wasteland that is, central canada.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyalcatraz
A note on the 7- and 8- string thing:

Charlie Hunter DOES get a convincing bass tone out of his. But his are custom guitars, with the lower 2 or 3 strings being actual bass strings going through actual bass pickups and with 2 outputs, so the bass signal goes through actual bass amps.

IOW, he is effectively playing bass & guitar simultaneously.


In my defence, I said this in the 2nd post in this thread, I just said it poorly
__________________
Caution: This post may contain my opinion and/or inaccurate information.

Mesa Boogie Mark V PRS SE Cu24 Voltage S212 Pedals!
Dunlop CryBaby WayHuge Swollen Pickle CMATMods Signa Drive Digitech BadMonkey
Boss TU-3 TCE Corona Boss DD-6 HBE Mimic
AWACS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2013, 03:20 AM   #31
dannyalcatraz
Registered User
 
dannyalcatraz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
I know- I just wanted to make it 100% clear...I just forgot to mention your name!

See? Pobody's nerfect!
__________________
Sturgeon's 2nd Law, a.k.a. Sturgeon's Revelation: “Ninety percent of everything is crap.”

Why, yes, I am a lawyer- thanks for asking!
dannyalcatraz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 05:37 PM   #32
Ninja0King
Registered User
 
Ninja0King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Thanks guys. I'll stand by my point that a cab is just a wood box. I highly doubt to identically sized cabs with different joint or wood types would have distinguishable differences in tone when loaded with the same speakers. I feel that the speakers make the difference in cab tone more than anything - not necessarily that the cab wouldn't, especially at low volume, but once you're blasting a wall of sound there are much more important factors than baffle construction, like the amp itself, speaker design, pickup design, etc. Perhaps there is a blind test in order for that.. but anyway.

I'm really not opposed to having a bassist. I just don't feel the need when I've achieved a satisfying bottom end on my recorded material already. Even if I do get a bassist, I'd still like to improve my sound. It'd be silly not to.

But thats enough of all that.

Based off of everyone's feedback, I think the smartest choice would be swapping 2 speakers to start. I'll have to give my guy a call, but I think it'll only run $175.
__________________
Custom Built Soloist w/ Invader & Sustainiac - Douglas Scope 725 - Douglas Grendle 727 - Squier Affinity Series Fat Strat Electric Guitar - Dean Vendetta XM
Bugera 333 Infinium - Kustom 120 Watt Cab - POD HD500 - Ibanez V70 Acoustic
Ninja0King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 07:21 PM   #33
Zaphod_Beeblebr
Shallow and pedantic.
 
Zaphod_Beeblebr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Behind a desk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
I'm really not opposed to having a bassist. I just don't feel the need when I've achieved a satisfying bottom end on my recorded material already.


Recorded =/= live.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Ittei
Matters of small concern should be treated seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Foo
A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.

Zaphod_Beeblebr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 07:41 PM   #34
Nico the Great
Damned Icon
 
Nico the Great's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Recorded =/= live.


This, this, so much this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
I'll stand by my point that a cab is just a wood box.


A guitar is just a wood slab.
__________________
7 STRING LEGION

Damned Icon - Portraits of a Man EP

Quote:
Originally Posted by SYLrules88
im not very good with that harmonic thing. i get them to match perfectly then i play a chord and it sounds like hellen keller singing


Music Man
PRS
Mesa Boogie
Nico the Great is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-05-2013, 07:44 PM   #35
Robbgnarly
Registered User
 
Robbgnarly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NSB, FL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
Thanks guys. I'll stand by my point that a cab is just a wood box. I highly doubt to identically sized cabs with different joint or wood types would have distinguishable differences in tone when loaded with the same speakers. I feel that the speakers make the difference in cab tone more than anything - not necessarily that the cab wouldn't, especially at low volume, but once you're blasting a wall of sound there are much more important factors than baffle construction, like the amp itself, speaker design, pickup design, etc. Perhaps there is a blind test in order for that.. but anyway.

You can tell a pretty big difference between different cabs with the same speakers. Go listen to a Orange PPC, Marshall 1960A, Marshall MG, Randall XL, Mesa Recto, Mesa Standard, Mills Acoustics, Vader all loaded with V30's and all most all will have a different sound. The size of the enclosure Is the biggest factor (the bigger the cab the bigger the bass response), but materials and construction type do make a difference. Bracing and baffle construction also play a key role in shaping/tuning a guitar cabinet.
__________________
2002 PRS CE22
2013 G&L ASAT Deluxe
2009 Epiphone G-400 (SH-4)
Marshall JCM2000 DSL100
Krank 1980 Jr 20watt
Krank Rev 4x12 (eminence V12)
GFS Greenie/Digitech Bad Monkey
Morley Bad Horsie 2
MXR Smart Gate
Robbgnarly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2013, 07:05 PM   #36
Ninja0King
Registered User
 
Ninja0King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nico the Great
A guitar is just a wood slab.

Well, yes. Plus some magnets and wire.
__________________
Custom Built Soloist w/ Invader & Sustainiac - Douglas Scope 725 - Douglas Grendle 727 - Squier Affinity Series Fat Strat Electric Guitar - Dean Vendetta XM
Bugera 333 Infinium - Kustom 120 Watt Cab - POD HD500 - Ibanez V70 Acoustic
Ninja0King is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2013, 07:33 PM   #37
Kyleisthename
Registered User
 
Kyleisthename's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Wait, you can afford a 10 string but not a new cab?
__________________
My Soundcloud dudes

The Youtubes
Kyleisthename is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-06-2013, 10:48 PM   #38
johnnykbop
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
No guys you don't get it, cabs are just boxes of wood! Speakers are just magnets and cardboard. Guitars are just wood and string! And metal is just jazz with really high gain!
johnnykbop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 12:34 PM   #39
dspellman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King
Hey guys,

I play primarily 7-string. Live, I play into a Line 6 Pod HD500 run through the effects loop of a Bugera 333 Infinium and into a Kustom 4x12. I use the same setup when recording, but from my line out directly to recording software which runs the cab simulation. I noticed that my recorded sound, when played on a nice audio system, sounded absolutely killer compared to out of my cab. My band currently plays without a bassist - and call my crazy, but I'm considering switching to a 10 string to fill in an occasional bass line and basically play lead guitar/bassist. Even if I stick with the 7, there's definitely something missing with my live sound.

What would be the easiest way to get some of that bottom end without spending too much?


I've used Pods for years (currently the HD series) -- the trick here is not to use a guitar cabinet (note that you're not using a guitar cabinet when you record) and instead use a wider range cabinet.

It's not necessary to biamp.

You don't need the preamp section of the Bugera, either.

Here's what I'm using (for extended range Variax, bass *and* keyboards):

Pod -> Carvin HD1500 power amp -> fEARless F115(s).

The Pod works as a preamp, especially if you use the cab sims included in the Pod.

The Carvin power amp is a rackmount 1500W amp (http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/HD1500 ) that weighs just 9 lbs and costs $329 new. Into a single fEARless F115, the amp puts out 800W RMS, bridged, into 8 ohms (that's the fEARless f115 impedance, and the F115 handles that easily). Two fEARless F115s will easily handle the 1400W RMS bridged at 4 ohms available from the amp. I should confess that I'm currently actually using the slightly older DCM1540L from Carvin, not the HD1500, but it has nearly identical characteristics. Don't panic when presented with 1500W -- if you're getting into bottom end, you definitely need the power.

About the F115s. These were originally designed as bass speakers, but are actually full-range flat response cabinets that happen NOT to fart out when running 800-900W with a 5-string bass. They use the Eminence Kappalite 3015LF 15" Low Frequency driver in a ported cabinet, along with a very high-power capable midrange 5" or 6" driver (either a Faital or an 18Sound) and a 1" tweeter. These are quite lightweight (about 45 lbs), thanks in part to the neo-based drivers and a really intelligent build/bracing system. Compare that to the nearly 100 lbs of the 412 you're carrying now plus the weight of the Bugera head (another 35-50 lbs). http://greenboy.us/cabs/view.php?model=FEARLESS%20F115
http://bnaaudio.com/products/products.htm



The form factor of the F115 is interesting; you can use it horizontally as a tilt-back monitor, horizontally as a straight-up cabinet, vertically as a straight-up cabinet AND you can order it with a top-hat socket to put it on a speaker stand.

Another option for the speaker cabinet is the fEARful (as opposed to fEARless) 15/6/1. This can actually be done as a DIY project, and was designed for exactly that. Speakerhardware.com has cut-sheet kits available that have all the components and a full set of pre-cut wood pieces. The kits can be had in almost any configuration, with all crossovers completely wired, drivers included, the correct glues, full instructions and even finishing materials (Duratex). Awesome cabinets. Or you can simply order the cabinet in your choice of finishes, grills, etc., from one of the authorized builders

Unlike your current Bugera, these cabinets are designed to disperse evenly (a Bugera 412 beams anything above about 500Hz so that you sound completely different off axis from what an audience member directly in front of the cabinet hears).
dspellman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2013, 12:40 PM   #40
dspellman
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbgnarly
You can tell a pretty big difference between different cabs with the same speakers. Go listen to a Orange PPC, Marshall 1960A, Marshall MG, Randall XL, Mesa Recto, Mesa Standard, Mills Acoustics, Vader all loaded with V30's and all most all will have a different sound.


Line up fifteen 4x12s filled with V30's and you won't hear MUCH difference in the sound, even with slightly different dimensions. The problem is that at any appreciable volume level, a 100-150W head isn't going to give you much bottom end from those cabinets; there isn't enough power, and the speakers aren't designed to do much below 100 Hz at all (and low E is 81 Hz). That's the real problem. The old joke is that as you turn up a Marshall, you turn down the bass. It becomes very muddy once you leave the bedroom and get onstage. 4x12s are, essentially, crappy solutions for extended range guitars, made even worse by the limits of 100W of tube power.

Last edited by dspellman : 07-07-2013 at 01:52 PM.
dspellman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:49 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.