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Old 07-07-2013, 12:50 PM   #41
dspellman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja0King

Based off of everyone's feedback, I think the smartest choice would be swapping 2 speakers to start. I'll have to give my guy a call, but I think it'll only run $175.


You're throwing good money after bad.
Swapping 2 speakers won't do it.

A cabinet is just a wood box to guitarists.
Not so to bass players, not so to FOH sound guys, not so to keyboard players.
The design of the cabinet in conjunction with the drivers (speakers) used is fundamental to any of these last three guys. Guitar players, who live in midrange, generally have no clue regarding speakers. They'll swap in this or that with absolutely minimal results ("No, my switch to SwampHumpers was HUGE") in the real world, in part because the cabinet was never designed around the speaker -- it was almost always designed around the easiest to market specification.

Last edited by dspellman : 07-07-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:03 PM   #42
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I briefly touched on the Variax...

The Variax (I've got two with a third -- the JTV 89F -- on the way) uses pitch replacement technology to drop string tuning down at least an octave and up at least five or six tones (perhaps more). Doing so provides a pretty good bass output (I've got four and five string basses that I use when I actually play bass, of course). In fact, I can drop the bottom two strings an octave and leave the other four where they are. On the Variax Acoustic 700, I've done this while playing with other acoustic-electric guitars, and have had people looking all over trying to find where the bass player is hiding. There's none of the mud due to short scale and humbucker pickups, and it's amazingly clean. You can do the same thing with the standard 6-string electrics, of course, but I rarely do that. Instead, I can tune the bottom three strings down and the upper three strings up and get a helluva simulation of an 8-string in terms of range. Obviously I'm chording differently and the intervals when playing solos are different, but with the Variax there's really no need for extra strings *unless* you're doing arpeggio work with short fingers <G>.

But even working this way has made it imperative that I have a wider range system than what you can get with a 4x12 (I've got four of these that have been in storage since about 2007) and just 100W of power. Since I double on bass and keyboards, both of which need wider frequency range (yes, bass players use WIDER range speakers than guitar players imagine, thanks to both five-strings and slap techniques).

If you're going to play extended range instruments, you're going to need extended range gear, and simply slapping another 12" guitar speaker into a very generic 4x12 ain't gonna cut it.
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:14 PM   #43
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Oh, and a final shot across the bows.

Steve Lukather has, for years, used active subwoofers designed *specifically* for extended range guitars. ISP Technologies makes one that can be used with your current 4x12 and tube amp. Essentially, it takes the output of your tube head, strips out the low end and feeds what's left into your 4x12. Then it takes the low end and feeds it to a 600W solid state amplifier pushing a 15" subwoofer inside a specially designed, sized and ported cabinet that fits under your current 30" wide cabinet.

http://www.isptechnologies.com/port...itar-subwoofer/



Here's another option (also from ISP Technologies):

This is a cabinet with basically the same dimensions as a 4x12 (but deeper). Same deal -- you can put your 100W tube amp head on the top of it and plug in. You'll also plug the cabinet into the wall. Inside the cabinet are a pair of G75s in a separate, sealed compartment. The output from your 100W tube amp feeds into the electronics inside and the middrange and highs are directed to the pair of 12" speakers (this makes THEM more efficient as well). The lows are run over to a 300W solid state amplifier that feeds a 15" speaker in a separate sealed compartment in the cabinet. NOW you're talking lows.


Last edited by dspellman : 07-07-2013 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:29 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dspellman
I briefly touched on the Variax...

The Variax (I've got two with a third -- the JTV 89F -- on the way) uses pitch replacement technology to drop string tuning down at least an octave and up at least five or six tones (perhaps more). Doing so provides a pretty good bass output (I've got four and five string basses that I use when I actually play bass, of course). In fact, I can drop the bottom two strings an octave and leave the other four where they are. On the Variax Acoustic 700, I've done this while playing with other acoustic-electric guitars, and have had people looking all over trying to find where the bass player is hiding. There's none of the mud due to short scale and humbucker pickups, and it's amazingly clean. You can do the same thing with the standard 6-string electrics, of course, but I rarely do that. Instead, I can tune the bottom three strings down and the upper three strings up and get a helluva simulation of an 8-string in terms of range. Obviously I'm chording differently and the intervals when playing solos are different, but with the Variax there's really no need for extra strings *unless* you're doing arpeggio work with short fingers <G>.

But even working this way has made it imperative that I have a wider range system than what you can get with a 4x12 (I've got four of these that have been in storage since about 2007) and just 100W of power. Since I double on bass and keyboards, both of which need wider frequency range (yes, bass players use WIDER range speakers than guitar players imagine, thanks to both five-strings and slap techniques).

If you're going to play extended range instruments, you're going to need extended range gear, and simply slapping another 12" guitar speaker into a very generic 4x12 ain't gonna cut it.


1 - A normal 4x12 works fine as long as you're not tuning lower than about Ab. Everything you're talking about is just a band-aid for not having an actual bass player.

2 - There's an edit button. Please use it.
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:49 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
1 - A normal 4x12 works fine as long as you're not tuning lower than about Ab. Everything you're talking about is just a band-aid for not having an actual bass player.


Apparently it *isn't* fine.

The OP's initial post mentions that he doesn't get from his 4x12 live what he gets from his recorded sound, and that his recorded sound is just fine. That has nothing to do with a bass player. Bass players are not required in a live performance; concert pianists, organists and guitarists have done just fine without one. It's simply become convention in a rock band, not requirement.

Quote:
2 - There's an edit button. Please use it.


You've just quoted five inches of material for a two-sentence reply. Dude!


Last edited by dspellman : 07-07-2013 at 02:00 PM.
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:11 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dspellman
Apparently it *isn't* fine.

The OP's initial post mentions that he doesn't get from his 4x12 live what he gets from his recorded sound, and that his recorded sound is just fine. That has nothing to do with a bass player. Bass players are not required in a live performance; concert pianists, organists and guitarists have done just fine without one. It's simply become convention in a rock band, not requirement.


You actually just compared organ and piano to guitar? Whatever though, that's not the point. The point is something you're missing. This isn't about whether or not bass is required or whether or not it's possible to do without one inside or outside of a rock context, it's simple:

OP wants more low end, OP doesn't have a bass player; "get a bass player" is a very simple solution that allows OP to extend the sound in to the low-end without having to spend any money on new gear. Of course he has more low end in recordings; the mic is right up against the cab and captures all of the frequencies being produced even if they wouldn't be projected in to the audience in a live situation.

You also suffer this issue it seems; messing about with tonnes of gear and weird fixes when you could just get someone to actually play bass to fill out the low end. This is really the crux of the issue; you're saying that having a bass player is convention, and that much is true but its purpose is to get more low end in to the sound. Compensating by buggering about with extra active cabs, signal splitters, variax guitars... none of it is needed. This is what the bass guitar is for.

Again I say: a 4x12 cab has enough low end for any guitar part but if you're trying to fill in the frequency range of a bass player as well then it's obviously not going to do; you're trying to fill out a frequency space that guitar is not intended for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dspellman
You've just quoted five inches of material for a two-sentence reply. Dude!


Yeah but I only took up one post.
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:42 PM   #47
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Now this is getting interesting. I've never heard of active subs before.. Those specifically are out of my price range, but the idea is pretty solid. I may be able to make something like that.
You make a good point, slapping more midrange gear in the mix probably isn't the answer.
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Old 07-07-2013, 11:29 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
You actually just compared organ and piano to guitar? Whatever though, that's not the point.


Most instruments are essentially single-note instruments designed specifically to work in a single register. Reeds, brass, string instruments, etc.

Organ, piano and guitar, on the other hand, are considered full-range instruments capable of playing bass, rhythm and melody at once. Most with any formal musical training will recognize that.

Quote:
You also suffer this issue it seems; messing about with tonnes of gear and weird fixes when you could just get someone to actually play bass to fill out the low end.


I'm not suffering anything. I have one set of speakers, a single amplifier, and the ability to reproduce the full range of guitar, keyboards, bass and virtually any other instrument. That's "tonnes of gear and weird fixes?"

Quote:
Again I say: a 4x12 cab has enough low end for any guitar part but if you're trying to fill in the frequency range of a bass player as well then it's obviously not going to do; you're trying to fill out a frequency space that guitar is not intended for.


The OP is trying to reproduce a frequency space that he is *already* reproducing in recording. He's just trying to reproduce it live. I've given him several solutions for doing so.


Quote:
Yeah but I only took up one post.


And provided no solutions to the question at hand.

Last edited by dspellman : 07-07-2013 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:21 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dspellman
The OP is trying to reproduce a frequency space that he is *already* reproducing in recording. He's just trying to reproduce it live. I've given him several solutions for doing so.

Thank the Lords of Metal at least one person understands what I'm saying..
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Old 07-22-2013, 01:39 PM   #50
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You might find some insight here: http://www.premierguitar.com/Video/...ick_Zinner.aspx

While the Yeah Yeah Yeahs are most definitely not metal, they also have not had a bass player until their newest release. That article details guitarist's Nick Zinner's rig and how he compensates for that sonic gap.
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