Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 09-08-2013, 06:37 PM   #1
merks7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Smile Minor pentatonic/blues scale help

Hi everyone! this is my first post here and hopefully some one can help me out. I am looking for a extended c minor pentatonic and/or blues tab or diagram I cant seem to find one anywhere, I have been jamming to backing tracks in C and my improvising all sounds too repetitive, I need to start making up new licks. Also I found this page --- http://www.freeguitarsource.com/Min...onic_Scale.html --which has the different shapes of the minor pentatonic scale I am wondering if anyone could confirm these are correct and are these ALL the shapes of the minor pentatonic? And finally I am wondering if any one knows a good website where I could find some videos with tabs on learning some licks in c minor pentatonic/blues. I know I asked 3 questions here lol but I hope some one could give me some guidance, thanks so much every one and thanks for reading this.

Last edited by merks7 : 09-08-2013 at 06:49 PM.
merks7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 07:21 PM   #2
crazysam23_Atax
Burning away
 
crazysam23_Atax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Frozen North! (read: Northern Wisconsin)
Ok, I'm going to help you out. But you may not like the answer. I'm not going to give you diagram or tab. I'm going to tell you what the intervals of the pentatonic minor scale are. Ultimately, this will serve you much better in the long run than memorizing a diagram or tab every time you decide to learn a scale in a new key.

1, b3, 4, 5, & b7 -- which is C, Eb, F, G, & Bb in C minor.

If the concept of "intervals" makes no sense to you, then do the following lessons:
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/30
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/31
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/32
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/33

If you don't know where C, Eb, F, G, & Bb are on the fretboard, then learn to memorize the fretboard. This UG lesson should be helpful in that.
__________________
Tunes?

Bandcamp

Now working on my upcoming EP "Discarnate". See the expected track list on my bandcamp.



Terry Prachett is funnier than you! Discworld

Last edited by crazysam23_Atax : 09-08-2013 at 07:22 PM.
crazysam23_Atax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 11:27 PM   #3
dalton.sala
Registered User
 
dalton.sala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Ok, I'm going to help you out. But you may not like the answer. I'm not going to give you diagram or tab. I'm going to tell you what the intervals of the pentatonic minor scale are. Ultimately, this will serve you much better in the long run than memorizing a diagram or tab every time you decide to learn a scale in a new key.

1, b3, 4, 5, & b7 -- which is C, Eb, F, G, & Bb in C minor.

If the concept of "intervals" makes no sense to you, then do the following lessons:
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/30
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/31
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/32
http://www.musictheory.net/lessons/33

If you don't know where C, Eb, F, G, & Bb are on the fretboard, then learn to memorize the fretboard. This UG lesson should be helpful in that.


I totally agree with this. I'm in AP Music Theory right now, and at the risk of sounding condescending, I can tell you if you ever want to be formally literate in music, knowing intervals is absolutely detrimental. If it helps, write down the intervals on flash cards and study that way. But regardless, learn them! You'll be able to construct a scale from scratch on any melodic instrument, not just guitar.
Good luck!
dalton.sala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 11:39 PM   #4
supersac
Registered User
 
supersac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalton.sala
I totally agree with this. I'm in AP Music Theory right now, and at the risk of sounding condescending, I can tell you if you ever want to be formally literate in music, knowing intervals is absolutely detrimental. If it helps, write down the intervals on flash cards and study that way. But regardless, learn them! You'll be able to construct a scale from scratch on any melodic instrument, not just guitar.
Good luck!



yeah agree wit both of them


also sorry about this but detrimental means causing harm
pretty much the exact opposite of what you wanted it to ...i hope
__________________
a youtube link?
maybe you should click on it
http://www.youtube.com/user/supersac69


Quote:
Originally Posted by whoomit
You sound like an amazing friend
i sound like one...im secretly a huge dick

my bands soundcloud
http://soundcloud.com/thenativetongues
supersac is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 02:50 PM   #5
Dave_Mc
Chirp and Swirl
 
Dave_Mc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
^ apparently he's not in AP english

I personally don't see a problem with learning the shapes (learning interconnected diagonals might even be more useful than religiously learning the shapes). all these guys will tell you that you have to know all the notes and all that stuff, and while that's good as an ideal for the long term, i'd rather help you now.

I didn't look at that link you posted that closely, but I think it looked ok. And yeah that'd be all the shapes (unless you have a 24 fret neck, in which case you can just repeat the shape at the 8th fret (position 1)). Bear in mind you can interconnect shapes etc., stretch across shapes, do whatever you like, really.

youtube has a bunch of videos (of varying quality, from great to crap). whether they're in C, I dunno (I'm sure some would be). You can always transfer other keys to C though, those pentatonic shapes you listed are movable- slide everything up 2 frets to be playing in D, for example.

I would agree though that understanding intervals, and being able to work out the notes on the guitar (even if you don't know them instantaneously) will save you a lot of work. Being able to find the root lets you use movable chords (and even those movable scale shapes) etc. You don't necessarily need to know every note (at least now), and you can often get by by *either* knowing the intervals *or* the notes (when I'm playing a fast lead passage I'm thinking more in terms of intervals than notes... if I'm even thinking at all ), but if you're totally clueless about *all* the notes and *all* the intervals, then that's not going to be helpful.

I mean I'm no theoretician, I don't know all the notes on guitar instantaneously (though I can work them out given a few seconds), but there are definitely a few things which are very helpful to know (a little work now to save a lot of work later, kind of thing). Don't rush it, either, you run the risk of having it all half-learnt. You're better knowing the basics well and having a good foundation than half-knowing everything. That's another problem I have with this "LEARN ALL THE NOTES NOW!" approach- obviously it depends on what you're like, but if you ask me it runs the risk of giving you information overload, which is never a good thing, because it can put you off and make you quit, or mean that you never quite understand it properly.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemurflames
I had a Blackstar. I felt like I was lied to by Chappers, that fat ****.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc8995
Rob Chappers would tell you he couldn't tell a cat from a dog if it would get him more hits on youtube.



Last edited by Dave_Mc : 09-09-2013 at 03:00 PM.
Dave_Mc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 01:49 PM   #6
Sean0913
Music Theory Renegade
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
My thought is i'f it's repetitive, its because you're only playing the same 5 notes over and over. Why wouldn't it repetitive?

Learn some other songs, build your repertoire. If you like blues, start learning note for note blues solos, and observe where they come from - connect it to your knowledge. In other words, build a vocabulary.

Best,

Sean
__________________
Guitar Teacher/Mentor

An Online, Theory Based Guitar School

Stuck? I Mentor Guitar Players for Free.

If you are interested in the Academy, I offer a free Skype-based Demo. Just contact me on my profile, and we can work out the times.
Sean0913 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 08:02 PM   #7
crazysam23_Atax
Burning away
 
crazysam23_Atax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Frozen North! (read: Northern Wisconsin)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mc
^ apparently he's not in AP english

I personally don't see a problem with learning the shapes (learning interconnected diagonals might even be more useful than religiously learning the shapes). all these guys will tell you that you have to know all the notes and all that stuff, and while that's good as an ideal for the long term, i'd rather help you now.

I won't disagree with this (despite my instinct to do so), but I would say that you really need to know the intervals involved. Whether you learn the shapes or not, you need to know 1) the intervals* themselves AND 2) what going from one interval to another sounds like. If you learn just the shapes without knowing the notes and the intervals, then it's like making a pizza crust and not doing the other stuff required to make a pizza.

*Note that intervals is a concept that will apply to numerous other parts of theory. For example, chord construction; knowing what chords fit and where (or at least what the rules are and therefore learning when you want to break said rules) is something that's key to blues or blues-influenced music.
__________________
Tunes?

Bandcamp

Now working on my upcoming EP "Discarnate". See the expected track list on my bandcamp.



Terry Prachett is funnier than you! Discworld
crazysam23_Atax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 08:53 PM   #8
macashmack
Maskcashmack
 
macashmack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: New York, NY
If you want to make new licks then learn new sounds.
That comes from training your ear, and as everyone else said, learning intervals.
macashmack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 01:06 PM   #9
Dave_Mc
Chirp and Swirl
 
Dave_Mc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I won't disagree with this (despite my instinct to do so), but I would say that you really need to know the intervals involved. Whether you learn the shapes or not, you need to know 1) the intervals* themselves AND 2) what going from one interval to another sounds like. If you learn just the shapes without knowing the notes and the intervals, then it's like making a pizza crust and not doing the other stuff required to make a pizza.

*Note that intervals is a concept that will apply to numerous other parts of theory. For example, chord construction; knowing what chords fit and where (or at least what the rules are and therefore learning when you want to break said rules) is something that's key to blues or blues-influenced music.


oh yeah knowing the intervals is definitely helpful (as i said elsewhere in my post).

Even learning the shapes, if your ear is halfway good/trained, will often get you partway there, though. Eventually your ear will start to pick it up (probably).

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemurflames
I had a Blackstar. I felt like I was lied to by Chappers, that fat ****.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc8995
Rob Chappers would tell you he couldn't tell a cat from a dog if it would get him more hits on youtube.


Dave_Mc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 01:48 PM   #10
crazysam23_Atax
Burning away
 
crazysam23_Atax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Frozen North! (read: Northern Wisconsin)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mc
Even learning the shapes, if your ear is halfway good/trained, will often get you partway there, though. Eventually your ear will start to pick it up (probably).

Yes, but how many new guitar players (excluding those who have previous experience with other instruments) have a decent/trained ear? It takes time for the ear to develop.
__________________
Tunes?

Bandcamp

Now working on my upcoming EP "Discarnate". See the expected track list on my bandcamp.



Terry Prachett is funnier than you! Discworld
crazysam23_Atax is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 01:56 PM   #11
Dave_Mc
Chirp and Swirl
 
Dave_Mc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
yep absolutely

at the same time you could use that very same argument against the "learn all the intervals/notes" philosophy, too, because that takes time as well (and could needlessly put people off).

there was a good quote in one of greg koch's books (which I read using amazon's "search inside" feature )- "Some frown on this visual approach, and certainly as you progress you'll want your hands to do your ears' bidding, but you have to stumble before you can run, and your eyes can do for you now what your ears will do for you later."

I agree with that. I'm not saying you shouldn't intend to learn this stuff eventually, because you should. Nor even that you shouldn't start to train your ear immediately, too- I know I often say that wanting to learn is half the battle won, and that's true, but if you can hear that you're wrong that's 90% of it won But I don't think you should necessarily jump in at the deep end, either, nor fixate/obsess over this stuff exclusively, either, which is what a lot of you guys seem to be suggesting. I mean, heck, I do have experience with other instruments before I played guitar, and some of the stuff you're suggesting sounds fairly advanced (not to mention, a lot of effort), even to me!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemurflames
I had a Blackstar. I felt like I was lied to by Chappers, that fat ****.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc8995
Rob Chappers would tell you he couldn't tell a cat from a dog if it would get him more hits on youtube.



Last edited by Dave_Mc : 09-12-2013 at 02:02 PM.
Dave_Mc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2013, 06:41 PM   #12
sweetdude3000
Registered User
 
sweetdude3000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Playing the blues by only using the pentatonic minor blues scale is a misnomer. Check out Hendrix's Red House. He not only uses the minor pentatonic. He uses the major pentatonic as well. Uses other intervals too like the major sixth - you can go as far to say he is playing with the Dorian and Mixolydian modes. He does a lot of things like uses fragments of chord shapes, targets the notes of the chord progression. Those are the alphabets; but you can learn your words and phrases by listening to others, then you will make your own one day.
sweetdude3000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 07:01 AM   #13
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
 
MaggaraMarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Finland
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetdude3000
Playing the blues by only using the pentatonic minor blues scale is a misnomer. Check out Hendrix's Red House. He not only uses the minor pentatonic. He uses the major pentatonic as well. Uses other intervals too like the major sixth - you can go as far to say he is playing with the Dorian and Mixolydian modes. He does a lot of things like uses fragments of chord shapes, targets the notes of the chord progression. Those are the alphabets; but you can learn your words and phrases by listening to others, then you will make your own one day.

I wouldn't think them as separate scales. I would think them as accidentals. It's kind of stupid to think "now I'm playing dorian, now I'm switching to mixolydian". The only difference between those scales is one note - the third (minor vs major). It would be much easier to think in scale degrees.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Just rememeber that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Digitech RP355
MXR Micro Chorus
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Hartke HyDrive 210c
MaggaraMarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 07:04 AM   #14
Ignore
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
i dont understand why people have to think of scales. Its Blues! every note except the minor second is pretty regularly used, but even the minor second can be used and made sound awesome. If you have to think about a scale, think about the chromatic scale.

Its how and when you use them. To learn this, listen to blues for real.
Ignore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 09:07 AM   #15
Dave_Mc
Chirp and Swirl
 
Dave_Mc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
^^ yeah. and in fact in a lot of blues you're bending the minor third a quarter tone sharp, so you're almost playing halfway between the dorian and mixolydian.

^ it can definitely help you to build it up, though (scales, i mean). I mean when i started out with blues, i pretty much just used minor pentatonic (often with the quarter-bent minor third, which I was doing before I realised what that was ). Then I figured out about the flat 5th. Then putting the major third in there too. And dorian and mixolydian a bit too.

But I agree that listening is the main thing, and that really you can use almost any note from the chromatic scale (and at least one from outside it)- but as you rightly said, you can't just use them randomly or it'll sound horrible. Use them right and it sounds awesome.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemurflames
I had a Blackstar. I felt like I was lied to by Chappers, that fat ****.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc8995
Rob Chappers would tell you he couldn't tell a cat from a dog if it would get him more hits on youtube.


Dave_Mc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2013, 11:18 AM   #16
mdc
UG's Mr Chord Man
 
mdc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignore
i dont understand why people have to think of scales. Its Blues! every note except the minor second is pretty regularly used, but even the minor second can be used and made sound awesome.

Just before the I goes to the IV, treat the I as a V alt so the b9 and other tensions can be used here.
mdc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2013, 03:19 PM   #17
merks7
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
thanks so much for all the input everyone I really appreciate it! I understand I should learn all the notes and intervals but that's going to take a while for me, I started to hang out with my old singer again and I am trying to make up some new licks asap so we can jam again, also thanks a lot crazysam23_Atax for the links, but is there some one that could help me figure out an extended blues and/or minor pentatonic scale in C ? I am just trying to figure some stuff out fast, also do you guys think you could solo over this backing track in c minor blues/pentatonic? hopefully some one else here will like this backing track too its pretty groovy, thanks every one!
merks7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2013, 03:26 PM   #18
MaggaraMarine
Slapping the bass.
 
MaggaraMarine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Finland
C minor pentatonic works over anything C minor.

Yeah, C minor pentatonic would work well over that track. But just experiment. Maybe you'll like some other notes too. So try different things over it. But basically minor pentatonic is a really "safe" scale over anything minor. It won't sound wrong.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Just rememeber that there are no boring scales, just boring players.

Gear

Charvel So Cal
Ibanez Blazer
Digitech RP355
MXR Micro Chorus
Laney VC30
Tokai TB48
Hartke HyDrive 210c
MaggaraMarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2013, 03:29 PM   #19
Dave_Mc
Chirp and Swirl
 
Dave_Mc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern Ireland
^ yeah

^^ to extend the minor pentatonic scale shapes just link the different box shapes in that link you posted
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemurflames
I had a Blackstar. I felt like I was lied to by Chappers, that fat ****.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roc8995
Rob Chappers would tell you he couldn't tell a cat from a dog if it would get him more hits on youtube.


Dave_Mc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2013, 04:10 PM   #20
GuitarMunky
I play guitar n stuff
 
GuitarMunky's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: on your back
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignore
i dont understand why people have to think of scales. Its Blues! every note except the minor second is pretty regularly used, but even the minor second can be used and made sound awesome. If you have to think about a scale, think about the chromatic scale.

Its how and when you use them. To learn this, listen to blues for real.



If you listen to blues for real, you'll notice that they DO NOT just think about the chromatic scale, but rather actually use the pentatonic and blues scales more than anything else. You're not going to find to many examples of popular blues guitarist just playing random intervals.

and to help you understand why, playing in a specific scale, gives a specific sound. If you want one of those sounds you'll have to utilize the appropriate scale. Just seeing it all as the chromatic scale won't give you the same result.

and "minor 2nd" doesn't refer to a note, it's an interval between 2 notes, something that you find in scales. (for example a minor 2nd exists between the 4 & #4 or #4 and 5 in the minor blues scale). I would suggest that when you hear that interval in a blues context, it will often be in that context.

Last edited by GuitarMunky : 09-15-2013 at 04:15 PM.
GuitarMunky is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:50 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.