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Old 09-15-2013, 04:47 PM   #21
MaggaraMarine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
If you listen to blues for real, you'll notice that they DO NOT just think about the chromatic scale, but rather actually use the pentatonic and blues scales more than anything else. You're not going to find to many examples of popular blues guitarist just playing random intervals.

and to help you understand why, playing in a specific scale, gives a specific sound. If you want one of those sounds you'll have to utilize the appropriate scale. Just seeing it all as the chromatic scale won't give you the same result.

and "minor 2nd" doesn't refer to a note, it's an interval between 2 notes, something that you find in scales. (for example a minor 2nd exists between the 4 & #4 or #4 and 5 in the minor blues scale). I would suggest that when you hear that interval in a blues context, it will often be in that context.

He's talking about the minor 2nd scale degree, not the interval, ie if we are in E, it would be F.

And chromatic scale isn't random intervals. Most blues uses the chromatic scale, for example it uses both major and minor 3rds and diminished 5ths and stuff - that's pretty chromatic. Also a basic chromatic line used in blues is b7-7-1, sometimes 6-b7-7-1. Chromatics are used a lot in blues.

When I play the blues, I usually mostly base my playing on the blues scale and then add the other notes I need if I need them. Most of the time they are a major 3rd, a major 6th and a major 7th, sometimes a major 2nd (and I'm talking about scale degrees).
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Old 09-15-2013, 05:36 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
He's talking about the minor 2nd scale degree, not the interval, ie if we are in E, it would be F.


Then I would say it's hardly used at all in blues. (the b9 over the I7 chord)

not saying you can't do it. You can play whatever you like, but you won't find an abundance of examples of it by professional players. (if you want to argue about this look up the definition of abundance 1st)


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
And chromatic scale isn't random intervals.

oh thanks for telling me that, I had no idea

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
Most blues uses the chromatic scale,


No sir. You'll hear chromatics but generally in the context of a pentatonic or blues scale.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
for example it uses both major and minor 3rds and diminished 5ths and stuff - that's pretty chromatic.
That's mixing Major and minor pentatonic/blues scales, which is different than using the chromatic scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
Also a basic chromatic line used in blues is b7-7-1, sometimes 6-b7-7-1. Chromatics are used a lot in blues.


that's chromatically connecting notes of the minor pentatonic, and Major pentatonic scales.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
When I play the blues, I usually mostly base my playing on the blues scale and then add the other notes I need if I need them. Most of the time they are a major 3rd, a major 6th and a major 7th, sometimes a major 2nd (and I'm talking about scale degrees).
yeah, those notes are all in the Major pentatonic/blues scales (with the exception of the Major 7th which I'd assume you only use as a passing tone over a dominant 7th chord)

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Old 09-15-2013, 05:58 PM   #23
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Here's a lesson I wrote about 5 years ago that I feel deals with this topic very well.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/less...t_together.html

I could probably do a much better job explaining it now, though I feel I did alright. I do really think that the way I laid out the shapes with the intervals included could be very helpful.
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Old 09-15-2013, 06:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
Then I would say it's hardly used at all in blues. (the b9 over the I7 chord)

not saying you can't do it. You can play whatever you like, but you won't find an abundance of examples of it by professional players. (if you want to argue about this look up the definition of abundance 1st)



oh thanks for telling me that, I had no idea



No sir. You'll hear chromatics but generally in the context of a pentatonic or blues scale.


That's mixing Major and minor pentatonic/blues scales, which is different than using the chromatic scale.



that's chromatically connecting notes of the minor pentatonic, and Major pentatonic scales.


yeah, those notes are all in the Major pentatonic/blues scales (with the exception of the Major 7th which I'd assume you only use as a passing tone over a dominant 7th chord)

But the way I'm thinking isn't mixing the major and minor pentatonics. It's more like mixing chromatic notes to minor pentatonic. Minor pentatonic is the basic thing and then I add some chromatic notes. I'm still kind of mostly emphasizing the minor pentatonic notes. But I think in scale degrees, not in minor and major pentatonics - I don't think them as separate scales.
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Old 09-15-2013, 06:31 PM   #25
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Well it's a myth that only jazz players follow the changes. So if you follow the changes like any half decent player then you won't have to think in scales and your ear will tell your fingers where to go cuz they'll know what a guide tone, chord tone or extension will sound like.

Said to everyone and anyone.

This thread can be closed now.
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Old 09-15-2013, 06:46 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
But the way I'm thinking isn't mixing the major and minor pentatonics. It's more like mixing chromatic notes to minor pentatonic. Minor pentatonic is the basic thing and then I add some chromatic notes.


it's the same thing, whether you choose to recognize the connection to Major pentatonic or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
But I think in scale degrees, not in minor and major pentatonics - I don't think them as separate scales.


You can think about it how you want, but it doesn't change the fact that most blues players (and probably most players outside of this particular forum) use the pentatonic and blues scales with acknowledgment.

This idea that everything is just 1 scale (chromatic) and that no other scales are relevant or important, is silly at best.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mdc
Well it's a myth that only jazz players follow the changes. So if you follow the changes like any half decent player then you won't have to think in scales and your ear will tell your fingers where to go cuz they'll know what a guide tone, chord tone or extension will sound like.

Said to everyone and anyone.

This thread can be closed now.


myths aside, following changes doesn't exclude the use of scales. scales / chords... that stuffs all related.

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Old 09-15-2013, 07:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
myths aside, following changes doesn't exclude the use of scales. scales / chords... that stuffs all related.

So, answer me this question:

Assume we have the below:

Where should I decide to switch from the major pentatonic to the minor pentatonic?

Yes, it's a trick question.
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Old 09-15-2013, 07:23 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
So, answer me this question:

Assume we have the below:

Where should I decide to switch from the major pentatonic to the minor pentatonic?

Yes, it's a trick question.



There is no correct answer here, as there are so many different ways you could play through that. If you have a point that you think disproves what you quoted out of my statement, just say it.
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Old 09-15-2013, 07:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
There is no correct answer here, as there are so many different ways you could play through that. If you have a point that you think disproves what you quoted out of my statement, just say it.

The easiest way to play the above progression is to use the F major pentatonic scale and add in chromatics (or chord tones) as needed. There is absolutely no reason to switch scales to F minor pentatonic at any point.
You don't change scales based on what chord you're currently on in the progression, unless you encounter a key change.
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Old 09-15-2013, 08:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
The easiest way to play the above progression is to use the F major pentatonic scale and add in chromatics (or chord tones) as needed. There is absolutely no reason to switch scales to F minor pentatonic at any point.
You don't change scales based on what chord you're currently on in the progression, unless you encounter a key change.


Well, the reason a person would choose to change scales is to utilize the color the chosen scale brings.

whether you choose to recognize/admit it or not, the truth is those notes that you refer to as being "chromatic", are often actually part of a scale, and if the player includes any passings tones, they will in many cases follow those scales. Take a listen to some Basie since you brought it up.
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Old 09-15-2013, 08:13 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
Well, the reason a person would choose to change scales is to utilize the color the chosen scale brings.

whether you choose to recognize/admit it or not, the truth is those notes that you refer to as being "chromatic", are often actually part of a scale, and if the player includes any passings tones, they will in many cases follow those scales. Take a listen to some Basie since you brought it up.

Regardless of the notes played, the "main" scale would still be the F major pentatonic. Also, it's easier to think of using chromatics than to make a conscious decision to change scales.
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Old 09-15-2013, 08:23 PM   #32
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You're confused and ya'll confused.

0:00 to 0:25 secs in, bitches.

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Old 09-15-2013, 08:26 PM   #33
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Quote my post then copy and paste the link. Tis apt for this thread.

Bye.
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Old 09-15-2013, 08:26 PM   #34
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Come on guys who can give me a extended pentatonic/blues scale in c !!??
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Old 09-15-2013, 08:30 PM   #35
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Not only that, it's apt for all Americans in general. So basically the majority of this whole ****ing community.
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Old 09-15-2013, 08:31 PM   #36
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Come on guys who can give me a extended pentatonic/blues scale in c !!??


p.s thanks so much for all the responses!
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Old 09-15-2013, 09:20 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merks7
Come on guys who can give me a extended pentatonic/blues scale in c !!??



here you go.... key of G though, just move everything up a 4th to C

Major Pentatonic scale in 5 patterns
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Old 09-15-2013, 10:59 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Regardless of the notes played, the "main" scale would still be the F major pentatonic.


that's your opinion, but unfortunately it's not correct.

The Key is F, but for soloists, which scale to use is largely a matter of choice. If you were to listen to some examples of seasoned players soloing over it (such as Basie himself), you would hear a variety of scales being used.


Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Also, it's easier to think of using chromatics than to make a conscious decision to change scales.


misunderstanding never makes things easier.

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Old 09-16-2013, 06:06 AM   #39
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^ The thing is, you don't need to think them as separate scales used. All notes belong to some scale. But if you add some chromatic notes, I wouldn't say you are changing scales. For example if I play a lick that goes b3-3-1, I wouldn't think the major and minor thirds belonging to separate scales, I would just think them as chromatic notes. You can think in scale degrees and ignore the changing scales. For example as I said, I would use the minor pentatonic as my main scale and add notes to it. I wouldn't switch scales.

I'm not saying you should ignore all scales of course.

And what's wrong about thinking in chromatics? Because it really is using chromatics. You can use them as passing notes but they are still chromatics.

Edit: Your thinking isn't wrong but neither is mine or crazysam's. If changing scales makes you play better, do it. But I don't see a point in thinking it that way.
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Old 09-16-2013, 09:37 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaggaraMarine
^ If changing scales makes you play better, do it. But I don't see a point in thinking it that way.



It's a matter of describing things accurately. There are alot of ways "chromatic" tones can be used in a piece. You might connect diatonic notes chromatically, or you might be dealing with secondary relationships and borrowed chords, in which case saying that they're just "chromatic", is too vague. With some more specificity you can really dial in the sound of those changes, both as a listener and player. As an arguer you'll just have to rely on semantics. They always do.

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