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Old 09-13-2013, 08:27 AM   #61
psyks
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Originally Posted by Todd Hart
And the reason for many of those actions from the west are entirely due to the a western notion of freedom, especially in the case of the defense of Saudi Arabia, support of Israel, and sanctions against Iraq. Bin Laden's main inspiration was Sayyid Qutb, who denounced the west solely on terms of its concept of freedom and human agency. It's not possible to divorce Bin Laden's philosophy, and the reasoning behind 9/11, from a hatred of the western ideals of freedom and the fact that the west was willing to act on these ideas.
That's quite a leap. To agree that 9/11 wasn't a response to military activity, but rather an unprovoked attack on 'western freedom', you'd have to make a case for 'western freedom' meaning exclusively the uninfringed right to intervene militarily anywhere in the world. I only say this because he mentioned all the military intervention as a reason for the attack, and not other regular freedoms.

It doesn't follow logic to say 'He attacked the west because of western intervention. The west intervenes because it follows western freedom to do so. Therefore he attacked because the west is free.' Unless that's not what you're saying?
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Old 09-13-2013, 08:36 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by psyks
That's quite a leap. To agree that 9/11 wasn't a response to military activity, but rather an unprovoked attack on 'western freedom', you'd have to make a case for 'western freedom' meaning exclusively the uninfringed right to intervene militarily anywhere in the world. I only say this because he mentioned all the military intervention as a reason for the attack, and not other regular freedoms.

It doesn't follow logic to say 'He attacked the west because of western intervention. The west intervenes because it follows western freedom to do so. Therefore he attacked because the west is free.' Unless that's not what you're saying?


No, that is what I was saying.

If we take his motive as true, then it's clear the issue is that the west isn't isolationist. The reason for this is obvious: in almost all of the cases he cited the western intervention disrupted al-Qaeda tyranny and business, or the tyranny and business of one of their cheque-writers (aka Saddam Hussein). The reason for western action in most of those cases (not all) was a sense of the need to export democracy and uphold a sense of human rights, among other less noble causes, certainly.

And again, Bin Laden was very politically aware, and at the time was trying to rile up Muslims across the world to aid his cause. This is clear from the fatwahs he put out in his life: both of which encouraged all Muslims to attack or hinder the western, especially American, and Israeli presence in the middle East. The motive in these cases and all his statements has clearly been to paint the west as an enemy in the eyes of Muslims in the middle east in order to get the ball rolling for a complete extirpation of western and Israeli forces there. Like I said, stating that he disliked the way women in America were having sex before they got married would hardly have helped that project.

I mean, I do partially agree: I don't really thing Bin Laden gave much of a **** about the rest of the world - he was a gangster and a businessman whose business was under threat. But I think his original inspirations was the work of Sayyid Qutb; and I don't think the motives of the people with the bombs strapped to their ankles were separate from a belief that the west fundamentally repulsed god.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:13 AM   #63
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This.

Can you "this" the OP?
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:27 AM   #64
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I mean, it's one thing to put yourself in danger by acting irresponsibly, but it's another thing entirely to put someone else at risk because of it.


How far are you willing to take that?
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:42 AM   #65
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i wonder what he'd think about me trying to burn 2998 bibles

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Old 09-13-2013, 10:44 AM   #66
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i wonder what he'd think about me trying to burn 2998 bibles

"my imaginary friend is better than yours"



He'd think you were an asshole.

Just like he is.

He'd be right.




But I wouldn't want you arrested for it either.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:45 AM   #67
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I hope his arrest was based only on some clean air act or something.
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Old 09-13-2013, 10:55 AM   #68
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I hope his arrest was based only on some clean air act or something.

You can book a person for anything, these days.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:14 AM   #69
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Can you "this" the OP?

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Old 09-13-2013, 11:44 AM   #70
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i thought this was Monty Python's Terry Jones and i was like wat.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:55 AM   #71
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It's just a book, only a Muslim would kill, rape, and pillage over something as stupid as their book being burned by a Christian.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:56 AM   #72
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It's just a book, only a Muslim would kill, rape, and pillage over something as stupid as their book being burned by a Christian.

This would have been a false statement not that long ago.
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Old 09-13-2013, 12:17 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Gibson_SG_uzr55
This would have been a false statement not that long ago.



Agreed, but no longer relevant.
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Old 09-13-2013, 12:20 PM   #74
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Agreed, but no longer relevant.

True, but for all we know his statement won't be relevant by the next century either.
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Old 09-13-2013, 12:40 PM   #75
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True, but for all we know his statement won't be relevant by the next century either.


I sincerely hope you are correct, and have alluded to this in the past given the fact that all religions seem to moderate over time.

But unfortunately we have to deal with Islam as it, or at least a portion of it, is today.
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Old 09-13-2013, 01:27 PM   #76
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I can't wait till our generation takes over political leadership.
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:26 AM   #77
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I think he is incredibly stupid and ignorant. But I also support his right to be incredibly stupid and ignorant.
His actions are no different than the gay rights group that bought a home across the street from the WBC and painted it in the rainbow coalition colors and turned it into a group headquarters. They did it to offend them. They did it to make a statement they knew was going to anger Fred Phelps. The difference is the WBC does not kill people.

And that's the point right there... contradictory to the first part of your post that I bolded, the second bolded part clearly shows that there IS a 'difference'... unlike the WBC Islamic extremists DO kill people in retaliation for the kind of stunts that Jones keeps pulling. And the other important point to remember is that Jones KNOWS this and is still willing to do anything he can to anger people who he KNOWS are likely to go and kill someone else over it.

As the link that you provided says;
"Jones repeatedly has ignored pleas from the U.S. military asking him not to stage his protests. Military officials say his actions put American and Western troops in Afghanistan and elsewhere in danger."

If he KNOWS that his actions are likely to cause harm to American troops, and he goes ahead and does it anyway, isn't that tantamount to treason? Doesn't it essentialy make him a terrorist?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
I mean, it's one thing to put yourself in danger by acting irresponsibly, but it's another thing entirely to put someone else at risk because of it.



How far are you willing to take that?

C'mon man, it's just a common sense point. A black and white statement, something that everyone knows, are you gonna prove it wrong or come up with a completely unrelated scenario that could possibly be an exeption to the general rule?
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Old 09-14-2013, 05:15 AM   #78
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I thought he got arrested because of the fuel/fire hazard?

Edit: yup. It seems his arrest had nothing to do with what he was attempting to burn.
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Old 09-14-2013, 05:35 AM   #79
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I thought he got arrested because of the fuel/fire hazard?

He was charged with 'transporting fuel illegally', mainly because the way he transported it (the fuel was kerosene which was soaked into copies of the Qur'an which in turn were placed on a large barbecue grill which was towed behind a truck that Jones was driving) was considered as a dangerous way to transport fuel and could be a possible hazard.
In other words, he was arrested for doing something in an irresponsible manner that could cause danger to other people, which apparently is a much different thing to him saying something in an irresponsible manner that could cause danger to other people.
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Old 09-14-2013, 05:42 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
And that's the point right there... contradictory to the first part of your post that I bolded, the second bolded part clearly shows that there IS a 'difference'... unlike the WBC Islamic extremists DO kill people in retaliation for the kind of stunts that Jones keeps pulling. And the other important point to remember is that Jones KNOWS this and is still willing to do anything he can to anger people who he KNOWS are likely to go and kill someone else over it.

As the link that you provided says;
"Jones repeatedly has ignored pleas from the U.S. military asking him not to stage his protests. Military officials say his actions put American and Western troops in Afghanistan and elsewhere in danger."

If he KNOWS that his actions are likely to cause harm to American troops, and he goes ahead and does it anyway, isn't that tantamount to treason? Doesn't it essentialy make him a terrorist?


So you would say that Salman Rushdie is a terrorist? Or that the Danish cartoonists were guilty of treason?
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