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Old 10-12-2013, 06:20 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ikey_
yes it does. i would say cab will play a role un miced. i am running a 2x12 cab and i would have no hesitation playing clean un miced. a huge venue? an ampitheatre? no. but nobody does that anyways. a room? like a bar? sure. your fine. 40 watts of 6L6 will do it, hot switch off, gain low master up.

thought as much, but it never hurts to get a second opinion! thanks!
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:25 PM   #22
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i just played a tweaker 15 1x12 (amp built into cab) at guitar center today while demoing pedals.

i must say, cleans not too much difference, but with gain, the amp sounds WAY different than mine.

i have mine (in my sig) with new preamp tubes running through a 2x12 avatar standing vertical (better sound dispersion), closed back, and WGS speakers. definitely has its own character compared to the stock amp .

and the 40 watt has 6L6s, not El84s
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:50 PM   #23
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So Iíve done some more internet based research and I think Iím going to take the Egnater Tweaker off my shortlist, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, although I want clean to cleaníish tones in the main, and I donít mind a bit of Marshall sound now and again, I donít want to pay for it. So having the Marshal voicing on there is something Iím going to be paying for but will hardly use. I have an original UK-made Marshal Guvínor pedal that will suffice for that.

The dealbreaker for me though was that it only had a line level effects loop. There is, Iím sure, a very good reason for it but it makes buying instrument level pedal a lottery and I donít want that. My G3X works at instrument level as does my Guvínor, and I donít want to render them useless. So bye-bye Egnater Tweaker.

The Laney Lionheart series have also been ditched because of the parallel loop that has no mix control. Again my G3X will become useless if I go for this amp. Why would they put such a thing on those amps? Oh well.

Anyway, I have added the PRS SE 20 to my list of amps to try. Itís a good price. I can get the head version for £439 or I can go with the combo version for £499.

The only worry I have with the combo is that it is closed back. Is that good for an amp that will only be used at ďbedroomĒ levels? The speaker is supposed to be okay but nothing special, but at that price though I can afford to change the speaker to a better one such as a Celestion Gold or Heritage G12H30 but how will they react to the closed back?

The alternative is the head at £439 and a Montage 1x12 cab to go with it loaded with the Celestion Gold or Heritage or whatever. These have backs that can be changed from open to closed if required. But are those speakers the right ones, and are those Montage cabs any good?

Otherwise it seems a great amp on paperÖ two channels, tube-driven reverb, tube-driven effects loop with line/instrument level switch; 6V6ís; 5 year warranty. All good stuff. Just the questions over the cab/combo format and speakers.
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:56 PM   #24
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i'm not sure of the wisdom of buying cheapish amps and then sticking premium speakers in there. i'd rather spend more money on the amp, really. EDIT: to clarify: I'm not saying speakers don't make a difference, because they make a massive difference. I'm saying that an eminence legend at ~£50 is "good enough", especially if you're looking at cheapish amps. I mean- mike soldano uses eminence v12s in his cabs.

i have a couple of the montage 2x12s and they seem fine, though i have noticed a slight rattle at times. admittedly, i have them stacked on top of each other, so that's probably not helping (i didn't notice a rattle when i didn't have them stacked), and it could easily be something minor like a speaker lead rattling against the speaker.

it's hard to say regarding specific speakers with that amp- i haven't tried the amp. g12h30s are normally fine in closed-back situations; i haven't tried the gold. But obviously that doesn't mean that the g12h30 will necessarily suit that amp.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:15 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by deano_l
So Iíve done some more internet based research and I think Iím going to take the Egnater Tweaker off my shortlist, for a number of reasons.

Firstly, although I want clean to cleaníish tones in the main, and I donít mind a bit of Marshall sound now and again, I donít want to pay for it. So having the Marshal voicing on there is something Iím going to be paying for but will hardly use. I have an original UK-made Marshal Guvínor pedal that will suffice for that.

The dealbreaker for me though was that it only had a line level effects loop. There is, Iím sure, a very good reason for it but it makes buying instrument level pedal a lottery and I donít want that. My G3X works at instrument level as does my Guvínor, and I donít want to render them useless. So bye-bye Egnater Tweaker.


Anyway, I have added the PRS SE 20 to my list of amps to try. Itís a good price. I can get the head version for £439 or I can go with the combo version for £499.

The only worry I have with the combo is that it is closed back. Is that good for an amp that will only be used at ďbedroomĒ levels? The speaker is supposed to be okay but nothing special, but at that price though I can afford to change the speaker to a better one such as a Celestion Gold or Heritage G12H30 but how will they react to the closed back?

The alternative is the head at £439 and a Montage 1x12 cab to go with it loaded with the Celestion Gold or Heritage or whatever. These have backs that can be changed from open to closed if required. But are those speakers the right ones, and are those Montage cabs any good?

Otherwise it seems a great amp on paperÖ two channels, tube-driven reverb, tube-driven effects loop with line/instrument level switch; 6V6ís; 5 year warranty. All good stuff. Just the questions over the cab/combo format and speakers.

The Tweaker 40W has a level select switch for the fx loop. The G3X will work, although I'm not sure why you'd want to use the Guvnor in the loop of an amp. I'd reconsider getting the Tweaker. 40W isn't all that loud really, even when playing alone for clean stuff especially. PRS isn't loved alot for their amps, but I never played the one your looking at. For Laney I think the VC30 2x12 may have a Insert/Serial type fx loop, but I'm not sure. I think their LC50H may have a selectable loop, not sure there either.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:29 PM   #26
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You say you don't want to pay for Marshall voicing but you're willing to pay for the PRS amp, which is not only more expensive but also has less headroom and a worse clean tone than the Tweaker 40. Seriously, if you want Fender clean tones in a head, get a Fender Supersonic or the Tweaker 40 or 88. The 88 has some of the best high-wattage Fender cleans I've ever heard. If you want that SRV chirpy clean, that's where it's at. The PRS sounded lame to me, clean and dirty, and it certainly doesn't get lovely high-headroom Fender cleans. It's certainly more British-voiced than the Tweaker on the USA setting, and it's definitely not a clean-oriented amp. This is why you need to go play these amps, otherwise you start deciding that you don't want the Tweaker because it's got $5 worth of parts you might not use, while the PRS is actually voiced like that permanently and costs more in the first place. Ten minutes in a shop would have told you that, but if you just read all the PRS specs, you'd think it was the second coming. It's just not a good amp IMO, and it's certainly not better suited to your needs than the tweaker.

This is like getting a Telecaster instead of a strat because you don't want to pay for the middle pickup, but then deciding you really want an upper cutaway and a trem. You can read the Tele specs all you want and convince yourself it's a better guitar, but the reality is that you should've looked a bit harder at the Strat before moving on.

The effects loop issue was addressed above. Personally I'd rather have the amp that sounds better in the first place and work out the effects issue than buy a lesser amp just because it might not play nice with my $50 pedal. That's with the 15, the 30 and the 88 don't even have that issue.

Anyway, this gets pretty silly because you're crossing a lot of things off your list before trying them, and adding a lot of things to your list based on perceptions that might not be true at all. Go play as many as you can, and then make a decision. Reading specs online is warping your view severely. These manufacturer specs are like horoscopes; they're going to be as vague as they can while telling you exactly what you want to hear, so you'll think it's a perfect fit just for you. It's not, they're just trying to sell you an amp.
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Old 10-22-2013, 03:58 PM   #27
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I have a Zoom G3 in the loop of my Tweaker 15. I wouldn't put a distortion pedal in there anyway.
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Old 10-22-2013, 04:44 PM   #28
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"paying for Marshall voicing"

That's really not how amp pricing works, at all. You don't just pay for features, or wattage, or anything.
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Old 10-22-2013, 05:36 PM   #29
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Well in the case of PRS amps you're paying for a name.
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:15 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Roc8995
You say you don't want to pay for Marshall voicing but you're willing to pay for the PRS amp, which is not only more expensive but also has less headroom and a worse clean tone than the Tweaker 40.


I donít understand that part. The PRS SE head is £439 and the Tweaker 40 head is £529. The PRS SE head is not more expensive. Factor in the lack of reverb in the tweaker and the cost gap widens further.

The PRS SE range donít really get bad reviews. I have read them and most of the reviews are either very positive or focus on the Chinese manufacture (which doesnít bother me) or the distortion (which again doesnít bother me).

Of course you are right about my Gov'nor not going in the loop. My mistake. But I will want to run the G3X in the loop and that is a problem with the Tweaker. I have seen a number of people say they run this or that just fine in the tweakers loop, but the question is... how? If the loop is running at line level and the effect is at in strument level, what compromises are being made in the signal chain. It might be okay for a few specific pieces of kit, but it doesn't take much digging to find other pieces of kit that don't work very well.

No. It's off the list. It looks great and I'm sure it's very good but it doesn't sit right with me given I don't chop and change gear. This amp I'm going to buy will stay with me for the next decade at least. I don't chop and change. I can get any number of 6V6 designs, but if the loop isn't capable of catering for my needs over the next decade then it's not something I can invest in.

I'm willing to keep looking at other amps that are suggested and the TB18C1 is still in the game, but the Tweaker is off the list.

I have to use the internet and specs to build up my testing list because trying amps out that are not modellers, basic fenders or blackstars involves quite a lot of travelling as they are few and far in between in the UK.

I think that is a reality for many gear buyers in the UK and outside of the US in general.
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Old 10-22-2013, 06:48 PM   #31
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Again with the reviews. I didn't bother looking at them because I've played both, and I think most people who played them side by side would pick the Tweaker almost every time, especially when it comes to clean tones. Maybe try to get some Youtube clips? I get that you really want to put stock in the reviews, but having played both side by side, I just cannot take them seriously. I've read enough glowing reviews of crappy equipment to know that a few unbiased opinions are worth a lot more than a boatload of customers who have already decided that they're happy, regardless of the actual quality of the product.

As to prices, I was going by standard retail in the US which has the Egnater 40 head significantly cheaper than the PRS, and the 88 roughly the same price. Even if the prices were all identical I think you'd have to be insane to get the PRS for clean Fender tones.

As was said before, the Tweaker 40 and 88 have a line and instrument level loop, exactly the same as on the PRS. It will work with anything you throw at it. Again you seem bent on throwing the Tweaker out of the running for imaginary reasons.

I understand that trying these amps might not be possible but at least work with the first-hand information we're trying to give you instead of these biased reviews and spec sheets. I honestly don't care a bit which amp you end up getting but I at least want you to make an informed decision and your research seems to be misleading you so far. You seem to be unfairly discounting the Egnaters which honestly are probably the best thing for your purposes besides perhaps an old Fender head if you can find one or a Supersonic which I mentioned earlier. The Bruno amp is pretty good but I personally would want the 35 instead of the 18 for the headroom if I were playing clean most of the time.
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:01 PM   #32
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Youse guys...

You might just want to get a really good preamp, pick up a solidstate power amp and a set of full-range speakers and call it a day.

In my bin of stuff, I have one of my old rigs. Hauled it out for a day maybe a couple of weeks ago. Two preamps on this rig -- a Mesa Triaxis and a Carvin Quad-X. The Mesa does all the Mesa sounds (not the Rectos) with maybe five 12 AX7 tubes and a whole lot of Mesa's very own tone-stack circuitry.

The Quad-X has been out of production for nearly 20 years, but it's a dirty little secret for a lot of guitarists. There are nine (9) 12 AX7s in this thing. Up to eleven stages of cascading gain, depending on the channel. Oh yeah. There are FOUR channels, with different gain stages on three of them. Active controls. Assignable 5-band EQ (plus parametrics on each channel. Built in boost. Built in bass cloaking (think HPF). Spring reverb. Six (6) FX loops, including one each per channel plus serial and parallel for the entire preamp. Midi control. There's even a 4x12 cab emulator. Much, much more. They're out there available used for about what one really nice premium pedal will cost you. You'll pay a bit to retube it occasionally, but if you're not going to be able to crank power tubes or run speaker distortion in your bedroom, why bother with that part of the rig?
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Old 10-22-2013, 09:37 PM   #33
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yeah you dont understand. are you reading reviews for the 15? some of the tweakers have MAJOR differences. for example, the 88 is not even close to the others.

the 40 watt has line and effects level loop. i own one, so i know. and for the record, the effects in my signature function perfectly fine at both line and effects level. ive tried.
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Old 10-22-2013, 10:19 PM   #34
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Old 10-23-2013, 02:59 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by ikey_
yeah you dont understand. are you reading reviews for the 15? some of the tweakers have MAJOR differences. for example, the 88 is not even close to the others.

the 40 watt has line and effects level loop. i own one, so i know. and for the record, the effects in my signature function perfectly fine at both line and effects level. ive tried.


I do understand. I understand perfectly.

No I'm reading reviews for the 40 watt version of the Tweaker and yes it has a level switch on the effects loop.

What I don't understand is why even put a line level effects loop on the 15 anyway when the majority of pedals and indeed other loops are at instrument level. But there you go. Perhaps that is a cost cutting measure and line level loops are cheaper to implement. I don't understand that bit.

I have to admit, after reading some of the earlier comments regarding 40 watts being better for "bedroom" use I am still sceptical. I have done further research and have really struggled to find anything that supports the claim that 40 watts is "better" than 15 watts for cleans at "bedroom" level (I play in a 10 foot by 10 foot sunroom).

Most of what I've read (except here on this thread) seems to suggest that 15 watts is fine for clean low volume playing, and 20 is way more than needed. Yet here I get told 40 watts! Well fine and I will take your advice on board, but I need a few alternative sources to back it up and after spending the last week trying to find something I have to say I'm struggling. Nobody seems to be suggesting that 40 watts is needed to get the best sound in a 10x10 room except here.

Someone suggested that it would be "better" in case I met a drummer! I said I wont ever gig. It's impossible. In fact if you want to know the truth I played in bands for years and years until about 3 years ago when I was diagnosed with an illness and had to stop. The illness makes it impossible for me to commit to being somewhere. So the liklehood of ever playing with a drummer is zero. It wont happen. There is no "maybe...", or "but one day you might...", or "but what if...". It's over. No more bands; my illness precludes it.

I will never play in a booked gig or at a rehersal for a band again. Yes it's all very sad, but I moved on three years ago. All I want now is something that doesn't give me ear fatigue after half an hour, will be simple enough to let me just play, yet flexible enough to let me add pedals to cater for getting different sounds. It sounds contradictory and I may well have not explained it very well, and for that I apologise, but I know what I'm trying to get at.

I also hate gear buying and selling, so what I end up with will be with me for a long time.

And finally I have a limited budget. Up to £720, to include everything, and yes I appreciate the thoughts behind it, but US retail prices are very different from prices over here, and I have to work with that.

Of course I read reviews on the internet. My most common way of finding a decent review is to put the name of the item in google followed by the word "forum", and any reviews are on sites like this, real people, and again I stand behind my statement that the PRS SE line get pretty decent reviews on the whole. Some don't like them for their tone or build quality, some hate them for being Chinese made, others for carrying the name PRS. Some good reasons, some not so good reasons. But fewer than those who like them. There is a limited number of reviews I admit, but if you discount the PRS and Chinese haters, then most of the negative reviews are centred around the dirty channel, which is subjective and lower down my own personal list of priorities.

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Old 10-23-2013, 03:24 AM   #36
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Oh, and I don't need "Fender" cleans. I played an AC30 for years and I like those cleans as well. As long as the clean is good to my ears, then I don't need Vox cleans or Fender cleans or any specific companies cleans. I just prefer clean to distorted.
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Old 10-23-2013, 03:50 AM   #37
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I donít understand that part. The PRS SE head is £439 and the Tweaker 40 head is £529. The PRS SE head is not more expensive. Factor in the lack of reverb in the tweaker and the cost gap widens further.

The PRS SE range donít really get bad reviews. I have read them and most of the reviews are either very positive or focus on the Chinese manufacture (which doesnít bother me) or the distortion (which again doesnít bother me).

Of course you are right about my Gov'nor not going in the loop. My mistake. But I will want to run the G3X in the loop and that is a problem with the Tweaker. I have seen a number of people say they run this or that just fine in the tweakers loop, but the question is... how? If the loop is running at line level and the effect is at in strument level, what compromises are being made in the signal chain. It might be okay for a few specific pieces of kit, but it doesn't take much digging to find other pieces of kit that don't work very well.

No. It's off the list. It looks great and I'm sure it's very good but it doesn't sit right with me given I don't chop and change gear. This amp I'm going to buy will stay with me for the next decade at least. I don't chop and change. I can get any number of 6V6 designs, but if the loop isn't capable of catering for my needs over the next decade then it's not something I can invest in.

I'm willing to keep looking at other amps that are suggested and the TB18C1 is still in the game, but the Tweaker is off the list.

I have to use the internet and specs to build up my testing list because trying amps out that are not modellers, basic fenders or blackstars involves quite a lot of travelling as they are few and far in between in the UK.

I think that is a reality for many gear buyers in the UK and outside of the US in general.

The G3X has a maximum of +5dB output level, this is line level output, I'm pretty sure this came up during your research, so you're aware of this, correct?

Anyways moving on, if you intend to buy an amp that you want to keep for like 10yrs then it's time to take your guitar & the pedals you have with you & make the trip to the stores. It's the only way to do it. Your in UK, not some remote area where there is a significant lack of options available. With a 700GBP budget, you have access to large range of combo amps. You don't mind where the stuff is built so that's a good thing, because you won't be biased when trying stuff out. It's time you tried getting some direct first person experience with whatever is available in UK. I'd start by doing a search on google for 15W amps that have an awesome clean channel for low volume playing, then check the specs & prices to see if they are affordable, going used would be cheaper.

As for question regarding "how?" I can't really write it out because it will take awhile. But I'll try something. The effects that go into the loop of an amp are mostly delay, reverb, volume pedal, EQ & modulation. As far as modulation effects are concerned, these will require a Series loop for the amp inorder to avoid phasing issues. However I've always found modulation to work best in front of the amp & not in the loop. As far as having a line level or instrument level loop, get a clean boost, placing it in the loop will stop your worries regarding signal drop problems there & increase the number of options available amp wise.
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Old 10-23-2013, 04:09 AM   #38
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The G3X has a maximum of +5dB output level, this is line level output, I'm pretty sure this came up during your research, so you're aware of this, correct?


Yes you are spot on. Verbatin from the manual. Also from the manual the Rated input level is -20dBm. So if I force feed +4db into that to use the G3X as my source of modulation, delay and reverb effects (ignoring the amp modelling etc), then that is surely going to cause problems.

Yes I know I need to visit shops and try them out. I intend to, but I need to plan that out properly as local small shops only carry the very common gear inteneded for beginners or for gigging metal players who throw stuff into vans!

The other issue is that many shops are not above saying "Oh yes, we've got that in stock" and when you get there after a two hour drive say "Oh, sorry we've sold it... but this Blackstar 100w stack that we've got hundreds of is just right for you".

Cynical? Yep. Wrong? Nope. Then people wonder why I hate buying gear.

Your view that you have found modulation effects to be best in the front of the amp is all well and good, but what if I decide in five years that I want to rely on channel 2 for gain? Then the modulation effects going into the front sound poor. So I switch them to the loop and subject them to +4db of gain?
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Old 10-23-2013, 06:48 AM   #39
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I'm not sure what you're getting at. Don't buy an amp based on its spec sheet. That really doesn't work. It's a stupid idea.
+4db is less than the +5db the G3X is rated at. I really don't see the problem.

+1 to Tweaker 40. That's everything you need.
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Old 10-23-2013, 07:07 AM   #40
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I'm not sure what you're getting at. Don't buy an amp based on its spec sheet. That really doesn't work. It's a stupid idea.
+4db is less than the +5db the G3X is rated at. I really don't see the problem.

+1 to Tweaker 40. That's everything you need.


The G3X has an OUTPUT of +5Db. Great. So it will go into the Line Level input of the Tweaker 15's return socket without any problem. Great.

But the Tweaker 15's send socket is at line level, which as I understand it is +4Db. The G3X's INPUT is rated at -20Db, so if I want to use the G3X go add a nice delay or reverb to the signal from the Tweaker 15, I will be shoving +4Db into an input rated at -20Db.

Some people say that sounds good. Great. Excellent. Wonderful... Why? Why does it sound good when it shouldn't? Is it more by luck than judgement? Because if it is then I'm going to be relying on that luck in the future and I don't like that idea.

I believe everyone when they keep saying Tweaker 40. I'm sure it will sound fantastic. But will I ever notice any benefit over 15 or 20 watts in a 10x10 room? Some people on this thread say yes, but I can't find anything to back that up elsewhere. Most thoughts are that lower wattage is just fine.

If there is a good, solid reason for more watts when I only really want a nice clean tone, then I'll add the Tweaker 40 to my list, along with the Tubemeister 36 and Laney VC30 and so on and so forth. The list grows exponentially at that size.

But it all hinges on whether I will notice any difference in a clean or cleanish tone that might or might not have any drive added to it,through a 1x12 in a 10 foot by 10 foot room when playing along to CD's.

An answer to that was posted above that said the larger output transformers will improve things, but I haven't been able to verify that elsewhere. The comments around that are mixed; some way yes, other say not noticably and to spend the money elsewhere.

I'm not deliberately trying to provoke anyone, and I'm happy to accept that the Tweaker 40 might be ideal, but short of playing one, I need to keep pushing back a little bit on it to try to understand why everyone thinks it will be great.
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