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Old 03-06-2014, 04:25 PM   #21
ali.guitarkid7
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Originally Posted by Arby911
No no no, the point is that neither of them deserves it to begin with.

Yes, but saying that accidentally killing civilians is the very same as purposely targeting those civilians is what I'm objecting to. Obama isn't even in the same league of terrible human being as Putin is. Not by a long shot. Obama's relatively a saint.
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:28 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ali.guitarkid7
Yes, but saying that accidentally killing civilians is the very same as purposely targeting those civilians is what I'm objecting to. Obama isn't even in the same league of terrible human being as Putin is. Not by a long shot. Obama's relatively a saint.


I'll agree with that, but did anyone actually say it? IIRC, Obama got his Norwegian Flavor-of-the-Month prize before he'd actually done anything? (Not that he's done much now, but still...)
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ali.guitarkid7
Yes, but saying that accidentally killing civilians is the very same as purposely targeting those civilians is what I'm objecting to. Obama isn't even in the same league of terrible human being as Putin is. Not by a long shot. Obama's relatively a saint.

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Old 03-06-2014, 04:33 PM   #24
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being that theres 200+ candidates, he probably won't win.

I think Snowden should win.
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:35 PM   #25
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being that theres 200+ candidates, he probably won't win.

I think Snowden should win.


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Old 03-06-2014, 04:37 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ali.guitarkid7
Because the use of drones isn't the ****ing same as military support, funding and training to people who execute babies at point blank?


Drone strikes executed without any regard to civilian casualties is just as bad as supporting war criminals. You could even say it's worse in the sense that greenlighting drone strikes is more direct.
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:39 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Arby911
I'll agree with that, but did anyone actually say it? IIRC, Obama got his Norwegian Flavor-of-the-Month prize before he'd actually done anything? (Not that he's done much now, but still...)

That's usually the reason people decry the prize. The drone strikes and the Libyan strike (which the US pushed for, but was not involved in militarily). He got it for establishing a climate of co-operation between the Muslim world and the US (which I 100% agree he did, considering the decreasing prejudice against Arabs and vice versa).


This is a guy whose foreign policy beats his predecessor's and allies' to a pulp. He's done more to help US/Middle East relations (not to mention the Middle East itself, which he did with little spending) than people give him credit for.

Putin is the guy who helped the Assad regime stall any peace process for three years, and then had to play into the hands of the US when that regime went rogue on his ass. That's his reward. He can suck my peaceful brown dick.

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Drone strikes executed without any regard to civilian casualties is just as bad as supporting war criminals. You could even say it's worse in the sense that greenlighting drone strikes is more direct.

Uh, no. The Assad regime greenlit the chemical attacks directly. They sanctioned the use of torture against children. And then they blamed it all on extremists while the world went "Really?"


That's not the same as the US army accidentally doing something they didn't want to do.

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being that theres 200+ candidates, he probably won't win.

I think Snowden should win.

There's also a little girl on the list who stood up to the taliban cuz they don't allow women the right of education. She's a much better candidate, imo
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:42 PM   #28
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:43 PM   #29
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He gets peace credit for not nuking the world tho
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:51 PM   #30
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There's also a little girl on the list who stood up to the taliban cuz they don't allow women the right of education. She's a much better candidate, imo


I can agree with that
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:52 PM   #31
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There's also a little girl on the list who stood up to the taliban cuz they don't allow women the right of education. She's a much better candidate, imo


If we're thinking of the same person, she's the goddamn best candidate.

Good for her.
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:54 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by ali.guitarkid7


Uh, no. The Assad regime greenlit the chemical attacks directly. They sanctioned the use of torture against children. And then they blamed it all on extremists while the world went "Really?"


That's not the same as the US army accidentally doing something they didn't want to do.


Russia is allied with a regime that commits crimes against humanity. Which ofcourse is horrible but still they do not order these attacks themselves. America directly commits what should be labeled as war crimes when they fire drones based only on cell phone locations. Calling that an accident is just plain wrong.
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:56 PM   #33
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If we're thinking of the same person, she's the goddamn best candidate.

Good for her.

I think so. I'm talking 'bout Malala Yousefzai. And to me she's the only candidate here. Don't even see the need for consideration.

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Russia is allied with a regime that commits crimes against humanity. Which ofcourse is horrible but still they do not order these attacks themselves. America directly commits what should be labeled as war crimes when they fire drones based only on cell phone locations. Calling that an accident is just plain wrong.

Yeah, my ass they don't sanction them. Russia's been Assad's biggest supplier of military, financial and diplomatic assistance. Fact is Assad is weak as **** and can't make a single move without Russia or Iran's approval. They own his ass after the help they gave him. They're not just allies.


Both are events that shouldn't have happened, but to even put Obama in the same ****ing league as Putin is just plain ignorant.
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Old 03-06-2014, 05:17 PM   #34
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That's usually the reason people decry the prize. The drone strikes and the Libyan strike (which the US pushed for, but was not involved in militarily). He got it for establishing a climate of co-operation between the Muslim world and the US (which I 100% agree he did, considering the decreasing prejudice against Arabs and vice versa).


This is a guy whose foreign policy beats his predecessor's and allies' to a pulp. He's done more to help US/Middle East relations (not to mention the Middle East itself, which he did with little spending) than people give him credit for.

Putin is the guy who helped the Assad regime stall any peace process for three years, and then had to play into the hands of the US when that regime went rogue on his ass. That's his reward. He can suck my peaceful brown dick.


Uh, no. The Assad regime greenlit the chemical attacks directly. They sanctioned the use of torture against children. And then they blamed it all on extremists while the world went "Really?"


That's not the same as the US army accidentally doing something they didn't want to do.


There's also a little girl on the list who stood up to the taliban cuz they don't allow women the right of education. She's a much better candidate, imo


Bullshit. The situation was improving well before Obama stepped into office, and all evidence indicates it's due to things like globalization rather than foreign policy. The muslim world, as a rule, reacts negatively to shitty foreign policy (no surprise there), and negatively to positive foreign policy. When we do good things, we don't get credit and even get blamed for trying to "westernize" everything (like when Nigeria said that us giving them polio vaccine was a western plot, or when we armed the Bosniak Muslims when they were being massacred by the Christian Serbs). When we do bad things, we get villified.

Size of Taliban and Al Qaeda training camps have been decreasing steadily since before the short-lived spike in recruitment from the invasion of Iraq. As early as 2003, recruitment was falling again. In fact, it seems that the radical Islamist agenda and their targeting of civilians (especially their killing of innocent Muslims) has done more to limit recruitment and improve their perception of the west than Obama's foreign policy.

edit: nobody who should be taken seriously is saying putin=obama. but whether you like it or not, they ARE in the same league in at least one respect: neither of them did anything to deserve a nobel peace prize. and that's what people were saying.

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Old 03-06-2014, 05:35 PM   #35
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Old 03-06-2014, 05:42 PM   #36
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Bullshit. The situation was improving well before Obama stepped into office, and all evidence indicates it's due to things like globalization rather than foreign policy. The muslim world, as a rule, reacts negatively to shitty foreign policy (no surprise there), and negatively to positive foreign policy. When we do good things, we don't get credit and even get blamed for trying to "westernize" everything (like when Nigeria said that us giving them polio vaccine was a western plot, or when we armed the Bosniak Muslims when they were being massacred by the Christian Serbs). When we do bad things, we get villified.

Size of Taliban and Al Qaeda training camps have been decreasing steadily since before the short-lived spike in recruitment from the invasion of Iraq. As early as 2003, recruitment was falling again. In fact, it seems that the radical Islamist agenda and their targeting of civilians (especially their killing of innocent Muslims) has done more to limit recruitment and improve their perception of the west than Obama's foreign policy.

edit: nobody who should be taken seriously is saying putin=obama. but whether you like it or not, they ARE in the same league in at least one respect: neither of them did anything to deserve a nobel peace prize. and that's what people were saying.

Right.


1) You can't say "the muslim world" reacts to any one thing in any one particular way. I was also talking largely about the Middle East, hence my usage of 'Arabs' instead of 'Muslims'. That'd be much harder to talk about.

2) Sure, when you do good things, you get vilified. This is definitely how the entirety of the Arab world reacts.

3) At the time of the award in 2009, most people in the Middle East saw Obama as an American hero, one who wouldn't promote the same kinds of prejudice and oppression used against Arabs since the 90s... and he hasn't. He really hasn't.

4) Obama's foreign policy doesn't rely on the kind of idealism non-Americans for some reason expected. He only wants to preserve US interests but will not get involved in unnecessary violence. So, if you were expecting him to end the crisis or stop sectarian killings peacefully or do some other type of voodoo in the ME, you'd be pretty out of touch with reality, and what he's done so far is enough. Like he laid groundwork for shitloads of peace processes over here. It's shit I don't think people were expecting to ever happen back in 2007 or 2008.

5) Globalization played a huge part in it, along with other factors (middle classes, poverty, reliance on natural resources) but you can't tell me Obama had no part in it. For a country that was seemingly at war against anything Arab (at the time), his accomplishments are pretty huge. For a region that was seemingly at war against anything American (at the time, again), it's also a pretty big accomplishment.
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Old 03-06-2014, 05:54 PM   #37
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No. Obama's foreign policy, such as it is, almost exactly mirrors the last 2 years of the Bush "carrot and stick" approach, minus any willingness to use the stick...

The only difference is a difference of perception, not reality, and one can scarcely credit Obama for that.
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:01 PM   #38
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Cuz he doesn't think the US cares enough to actually get it done. But the change in language, such as the condemnation of Muslims and Arabs altogether which the Bush administration never actually addressed since it fueled public opinion about the wars, is in effect what laid the groundwork. Whether he intends to achieve these goals during his term doesn't matter, as long as the people that follow don't revert back to how the ME was talked about in 2003 - 2007. There was a bias then that isn't here now, and Obama is very much partly responsible for this during his first term.


Second term, not so much
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:14 PM   #39
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@ali: I'm not putting your shit in quotes cos it would be a pain in the ass, but you know what you said.
1) You can't say "the muslim world" reacts to any one thing in any one particular way. I was also talking largely about the Middle East, hence my usage of 'Arabs' instead of 'Muslims'. That'd be much harder to talk about.
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I mean, yeah, you can. Obviously I'm making a generalization, which is why I said "the muslim world." There are absolutely exceptions. But Islam is one of the only religions that actually owns countries (obviously there's the Vatican, and lots of Christians in lots of countries, but I don't think they count as legitimate theocracies, and the Vatican is irrelevant to this discussion.

And you were the one who said "Muslim world." It's the part of your post I bolded and took the most issue with.

2) Sure, when you do good things, you get vilified. This is definitely how the entirety of the Arab world reacts.
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I said Muslim world, not Arab world (and so did you in the post I quoted). You're changing around who we're talking about at will, which is basically cheating at arguments. And I maybe wasn't clear enough in saying "we don't get credit and even get blamed..." I should've stuck a "sometimes" or "often" before "even get blamed."

3) At the time of the award in 2009, most people in the Middle East saw Obama as an American hero, one who wouldn't promote the same kinds of prejudice and oppression used against Arabs since the 90s... and he hasn't. He really hasn't.
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Yeah, so you're saying they gave him an award because they were pretty confident he would do good things and not bad things?

How is it that Obama condones drone strikes that have taken out civilians and yet is all-too-ready to criticize any other country for attacking an enemy base in the middle of a civilian population?

I'm not saying "obama is a terrorist lul," but he signs off on some shit that he condemns in other people and tries to play it off like he's still doing his own distinct thing.

4) Obama's foreign policy doesn't rely on the kind of idealism non-Americans for some reason expected. He only wants to preserve US interests but will not get involved in unnecessary violence. So, if you were expecting him to end the crisis or stop sectarian killings peacefully or do some other type of voodoo in the ME, you'd be pretty out of touch with reality, and what he's done so far is enough. Like he laid groundwork for shitloads of peace processes over here. It's shit I don't think people were expecting to ever happen back in 2007 or 2008.
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Bush was INCREDIBLY idealistic, saying, "This is wrong, we're not going to take it, and we're going to democratize the SHIT out of these people."

Whether or not you agree with his methods (I don't, and obviously you don't), that's obviously highly idealistic. As Obama was elected as the anti-Bush, I expected him to be a lot less idealistic. Didn't he run saying he'd end the engagement in Iraq? I don't see how anyone would've had those expectations.

The groundwork was laid (unintentionally) by Bush. Since he was doing it in such a way that people strongly and loudly disapproved of, doing the opposite would be immediately well received. Hell, he got the Nobel Prize for TALKING about doing the opposite. What a guy.

5) Globalization played a huge part in it, along with other factors (middle classes, poverty, reliance on natural resources) but you can't tell me Obama had no part in it. For a country that was seemingly at war against anything Arab (at the time), his accomplishments are pretty huge. For a region that was seemingly at war against anything American (at the time, again), it's also a pretty big accomplishment.
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Shit wasn't always that way. Before the Taliban came around, Afghanistan wasn't such a shitty place. America wasn't at war with anything Arab; it was the government using its circumstances to increase its power (because THIS time, they've got it right), which is something basically every government does, including the Obama Administration. But that last part is a sidepoint and largely irrelevant.

Obama did not increase globalization, or use globalization to suit his goals. America's status as a cultural superpower did that. Obviously, American culture isn't global culture, but when any enemy culture seeps into another country, they begin to have more positive views on it in virtue of their increased exposure. That's why there are the radical Imams (since you'll probably try and nitpick, I'm going to specifically say that plenty of Imams aren't radical) who so strongly resist ALL western influence. Because once the levees start to leak a bit, you know it's only a matter of time before they go.

Islamist recruitment has been decreasing since well before Bush. I'm pretty sure it was after they beat the Soviets/Russians, but I'm not 100% on that. It spiked after the incursion into Iraq, but that was temporary. It had little to do with Obama, and a lot to do with how radical Muslims would kill innocent Muslim bystanders in the name of Jihad. They also didn't really approve of how radicals would target civilians in general, but the fact that terrorists killed their own people in the quest for Jihad REALLY made them seem dishonest and hypocritical. Murdering their own people to save their own people? Seems pretty unlegit.
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:56 PM   #40
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