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Old 05-26-2014, 12:42 PM   #21
citizencaveman
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I only started to learn guitar some ten months ago, having never previously played any musical instrument.

For the first six months my practice was all over the place. Some days I practiced, some day I didn't. I didn't focus on any particular thing. Needless to say, I made little progress.

Disenchanted, I gave it up for a month.

Then I decided to have another go. This time I planned out a daily schedule. Twenty minutes for chords, twenty minutes for this and so on until it added up to two hours each day.

I amazed myself by managing to stick with it. After six weeks I found I had made more progress than I had in the first six months.

Unlike the six months, the six weeks had targets to achieve making my practice regular and consistent instead of f---ing and farting about like I use to.
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Old 05-26-2014, 12:44 PM   #22
bassalloverthe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913

1. Do you know the notes on the neck to the 2 seconds or less proficiency stated in the above conditions?

2. If "No", you're done. If yes, how long would you estimate it took you from the day you started trying to learn it, to the moment you had that level of proficiency?

Best,

Sean


1. Yes

2. Hard to say, but I would have been able to confidently do it in about a years time I think.

Don't forget when analyzing the data from your survey that most people dont go into a shed, learn all the note names, and walk out. They are probably learning note names, scale patterns, chords, songs, and other things all simultaneously. So the real amount of time spent learning just the note names is really hard to decipher




^ Great post. A practice schedule, and even log or diary, are great things to speed up your improvement. For the sake of the thread, however, I wouldnt be inclined to say its a modern technique. There are some Bach quotes on the practice regiment he assigned his students and children

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Old 05-26-2014, 01:15 PM   #23
Sean0913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
1. Yes

2. Hard to say, but I would have been able to confidently do it in about a years time I think.

Don't forget when analyzing the data from your survey that most people dont go into a shed, learn all the note names, and walk out. They are probably learning note names, scale patterns, chords, songs, and other things all simultaneously. So the real amount of time spent learning just the note names is really hard to decipher

^ Great post. A practice schedule, and even log or diary, are great things to speed up your improvement. For the sake of the thread, however, I wouldnt be inclined to say its a modern technique. There are some Bach quotes on the practice regiment he assigned his students and children


OK, 2 days. To that proficiency.

There's your benchmark. That's just point #1.

So, it is within reason that I hold the opinion that I have.

Best,

Sean
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Sean0913
OK, I've done it in 2 days. To that proficiency.

There's your benchmark. That's just point #1.

So, it is within reason that I hold the opinion that I have.

Best,

Sean


Okay, but I still have no idea what your method is, and that was the entire point. You could have done that using a "traditional" method and just had an outstanding student


Most posters are going to point out how incredulous that claim is, and ask you to support it

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Old 05-26-2014, 01:24 PM   #25
Sean0913
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Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
Okay, but I still have no idea what your method is, and that was the entire point. You could have done using a "traditional" method and just had an outstanding student


No you have no idea what my method is.

If you were to, I think that is known as "teaching" isn't it?

I could have had an outstanding student. Let's entertain that thought.

So, what about 500+ outstanding students?

I'm not concerned with calls of "incredulous claims".

Best,

Sean
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:28 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Sean0913
No you have no idea what my method is.

If you were to, I think that is known as "teaching" isn't it?

I could have had an outstanding student. Let's entertain that thought.

So, what about 500+ outstanding students?

Best,

Sean


I understand that I don't know your method. That would be why I asked what it is

It also pains me to thing about the 500 students who learned modes wrong, but I suppose that's for another thread

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Old 05-26-2014, 01:29 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
I understand that I don't know your method. That would be why I asked what it is


I think that's called teaching.

Best,

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Old 05-26-2014, 01:31 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
I think that's called teaching.

Best,

Sean


So the only thing which seperates the traditional style from the modern style is a teacher? Lol, don't be purposefully dense
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
So the only thing which seperates the traditional style from the modern style is a teacher? Lol, don't be purposefully dense


Speaking of dense...

Wow... I'll spell it out for you.

No, you do not know my method. Explaining the method, is the same as teaching it. I'm not going to do that. My method isn't important; I'm expressing an opinion on the traditional way things are learned and taught, if you're a guitar player looking to play better, understand music better etc.

I was registering my opinion, I'm not here to propose an alternative, or raise your understanding of how I teach be it different or otherwise, by providing examples.

That's outside the scope of this discussion. I will clarify questions about something I said, like "What do you mean by traditional method" etc, but I will not offer alternatives or explain how I do things.

Is there anything about this concept that you're not picking up?

Best,

Sean
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Last edited by Sean0913 : 05-26-2014 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 05-26-2014, 03:07 PM   #30
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When it comes to how good you get at guitar it doesn't fall under "Years" it falls under how many quality hours of practice you put in on a consistent basis. A person could have been playing for 10 years, and they still could be consider a beginner on the other hand a person could have been playing for 3 years, and could be considered advance.


Another thing that I find as a fault in guitarist among us is that they're caught up in being perfect not only is this detrimental to your progress to becoming a great guitarist it's also bad for your mental state when practicing I used to be like this so i'm talking from pure experience. Practicing with this state of mind will slow you down you'll get frustrated when you can't perfect a song or transcribe something immediately some people even quit just from having that mentality.


Don't worry about how much time it takes to get there just know that you'll get closer to your goals by putting in the hours of daily practice.. There's people out there that are so infatuated with the thought of having perfect technique it's not about the technique it's about the music sure you can always improve within your technical limit, but that's not the point of being a musician. All I can really say is focus on being a musician not a virtuoso's because there's a lot of them out there that can't even make decent music.


It just pisses me off when people think that guitar playing is a competition it's not a sport for gods sake get your mind out the gutter people! On another note it does take years to become a great guitarist, but not as long as other people may assume it only really takes 4 years of consistent practice to become really good, but there's always something new out there to learn it's a never ending process, and you'll keep improving as you learn there's no "stopping point" unless you decided to quit.

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Old 05-26-2014, 03:44 PM   #31
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That is akin to asking if I could have become an adult any faster.
It takes how long it takes.
Kids are not motivated the same as an adult; things and understandings change with time.
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Old 05-26-2014, 03:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal T
You always hear people saying " it takes years to be a great guitarist". Well, do you think that is because a lot of people do not know the correct approach to take to achieve musical goals?


No.

There is no one "correct" approach.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal T
Everyone is just different and not everyone can benefit from the same methods of teaching as others for many reasons.

So do you think that when it takes years it is actually due to a lack of proper knowledge and other things when trying to achieve musical goals?


No

I just takes years. That's not to say people don't make mistakes in their approaches, but it's not the reason for it taking years. it just does…. for many reasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal T
I bet if I knew what I knew now years ago I would have been so much better than I am now. Now I know why those handful of people seem to be better than the rest is simply because they just KNEW WHAT TO DO for their own personal musical goals. Too bad we can't rewind the clock.


I don't agree with that. There are lots of factors.


besides that, you CAN'T go back, so why worry about it. What you know now, you know because of those years. It's called experience. Use it to your advantage.

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Old 05-26-2014, 04:33 PM   #33
bassalloverthe
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Originally Posted by Sean0913
Speaking of dense...

Wow... I'll spell it out for you.

No, you do not know my method. Explaining the method, is the same as teaching it. I'm not going to do that. My method isn't important; I'm expressing an opinion on the traditional way things are learned and taught, if you're a guitar player looking to play better, understand music better etc.



"My method is teaching." Well, no. You teach your method. Which begs the question, what is your method. Surely it cant be that complicated to explain if your students can master it in only two days!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913


I was registering my opinion, I'm not here to propose an alternative, or raise your understanding of how I teach be it different or otherwise, by providing examples.




We want to know *why* you have that opinion. Maybe you have the best method of teaching guitar ever devised. How would anyone know your claim is valid?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913


That's outside the scope of this discussion. I will clarify questions about something I said, like "What do you mean by traditional method" etc, but I will not offer alternatives or explain how I do things.



So discussing your teaching methods is outside the scope of a thread on teaching methods? Wonderful. If you would please answer your hypothetical question, what do you consider a "traditional method" of teaching.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913

Is there anything about this concept that you're not picking up?

Best,

Sean


Yes, all of it. Because I dont even know what the concept is, let alone whether or not Im getting it. All you've said is, "I've had 500+ students and my methods allowed them to excel."

I'm genuinely curious, beyond the purposes of this thread, how someone with no musical experience learned all the note names on the neck in 2 days. It sounds miraculous to me, and thats why Im suspicious.

It also doesnt help your argument to cite your students, because for all you or anyone else knows, you use an extremely "traditional" method. I just dont know because I dont know what the method is.

I know you'll probably continue to shrug off my legitimate question because of hurt feelings you have left over from another thread, but...

I know you say you are a world class teacher, but for all I know, you're blowing smoke up my ass. So I was just curious about one very simple teaching technique you use

Last edited by bassalloverthe : 05-26-2014 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 05-26-2014, 04:57 PM   #34
Hail
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sean's got a lot of credibility and i definitely trust him as an educator. i don't agree with him all the time, but it's at least in the 80-90% range

he's been here a long time and helped a lot of people. i don't see the point of arguing over different approaches in a non-constructive way as if there's one "set" way of doing things

education is a very individualized process and each student needs to be taken into account individually based on their strengths, weaknesses, and goals. the only contention i see is the difference between giving the students the power to decide how much they want to learn and dedicate, and hitting them on the hands with a ruler whenever they get something wrong. even then both ways are perfectly valid depending on the situation, the student, et al

i've had all kinds of teachers, including people on UG. music is a constantly growing spectacle for each person involved in it and you always learn more from everyone you meet and everything you listen to. even if sean is perpetuating ideas or whatever that i don't find important, those students can break out of those habits later if they don't work for them

the best teacher i ever had taught me modes the completely wrong way (and he was a trombonist!) but that doesn't change the fact that he was an outstanding person to learn under

idk i'm rambling ima go back to dark souls
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Old 05-26-2014, 04:59 PM   #35
bassalloverthe
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Originally Posted by Hail
sean's got a lot of credibility and i definitely trust him as an educator. i don't agree with him all the time, but it's at least in the 80-90% range

he's been here a long time and helped a lot of people. i don't see the point of arguing over different approaches in a non-constructive way as if there's one "set" way of doing things




Im sure, but that doesnt help me understand what a "traditional" teaching method is. Or a modern one for that matter. Id love if he taught me right now ITT

And its really hard to argue over different approaches, when no one has defined either approach! Only talked about why the word modern is better than the word traditional, but no thought given to what the words themselves actually mean
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Old 05-26-2014, 05:02 PM   #36
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i thought it was really clear what he meant by the traditional approach lol i mean he outlined it completely as a list of skills gained in a rough chronological order way forever ago in the thread

the "modern" approach is "bro just look up the tabs"
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Old 05-26-2014, 05:06 PM   #37
bassalloverthe
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Originally Posted by Hail
i thought it was really clear what he meant by the traditional approach lol i mean he outlined it completely as a list of skills gained in a rough chronological order way forever ago in the thread

the "modern" approach is "bro just look up the tabs"


I have to be reading this wrong, because what Im getting from this post is that Sean thinks interval relationships, keys, sight reading, etc are all useless skills that people generally dont need to learn anymore. I figured even shawn wasnt that naive. But if this is the case, someone, please, tell me where I can find the button to blow up this board and everyone on it?

I took his post to mean that he had a better way to teach students these things, but my problem is that I dont know what his method is, or the method hes comparing to.

Probably the methodman method

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Old 05-26-2014, 05:42 PM   #38
Sean0913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
"My method is teaching." Well, no. You teach your method. Which begs the question, what is your method. Surely it cant be that complicated to explain if your students can master it in only two days!



We want to know *why* you have that opinion. Maybe you have the best method of teaching guitar ever devised. How would anyone know your claim is valid?



So discussing your teaching methods is outside the scope of a thread on teaching methods? Wonderful. If you would please answer your hypothetical question, what do you consider a "traditional method" of teaching.




Yes, all of it. Because I dont even know what the concept is, let alone whether or not Im getting it. All you've said is, "I've had 500+ students and my methods allowed them to excel."

I'm genuinely curious, beyond the purposes of this thread, how someone with no musical experience learned all the note names on the neck in 2 days. It sounds miraculous to me, and thats why Im suspicious.

It also doesnt help your argument to cite your students, because for all you or anyone else knows, you use an extremely "traditional" method. I just dont know because I dont know what the method is.

I know you'll probably continue to shrug off my legitimate question because of hurt feelings you have left over from another thread, but...

I know you say you are a world class teacher, but for all I know, you're blowing smoke up my ass. So I was just curious about one very simple teaching technique you use


If I explain the method, to you, that is called "teaching you the method" because it cannot be explained, without you understanding, and to understand means I have to teach you something. We are not in a teacher/student dynamic.

My method isn't the scope of this topic/thread. This is about an opinion on the traditional method, as I see it, from my perspective; not anyone else's.

Review what the thread was about. It's not teaching methods.

Why do I have that opinion? Perspective and experience. Both of which are outside the scope of this topic. This isn't about me. This was an opinion, one of many put forth in response to a question in this topic. I clarified from a guitar-learning perspective examples of problem areas with the Traditional Method. I have a problem with it. I have reasons; chief among them, is the time it takes. That's my point of view.

In regards to point two, I'll defer that answer to you. How would anyone ever know my claims are valid? Good question. Let's remove me from this though, and use a variable.

How does person A determine the validity of X?

It's okay to be suspicious, if that's what you are. Am I now responsible to appease your feelings?

Also, I don't have an "argument"; I have made a statement.

I never said I am a world class teacher. That is definitely not an opinion I hold at all. What I teach is a different story, than my skill sets as a teacher.

And to clarify my point:

The skills, (most of them) in that list, are useful, some aren't, but how they are taught and learned via, the Traditional Method, is where I have the problem.

We good?

Let others talk and let's keep this topic on point.

You want to know if I will explain what a Traditional Method is. I'll tell you what: ask me a specific question, as to "is "x" for learning "y" what you consider a traditional method?", then I will answer that directly. This way you can play with every permutation of detail until you are happy. That sounds fair to me.


Best,

Sean
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Last edited by Sean0913 : 05-26-2014 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 05-26-2014, 06:01 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
If I explain the method, to you, that is called "teaching you the method" because it cannot be explained, without you understanding, and to understand means I have to teach you something. We are not in a teacher/student dynamic.

My method isn't the scope of this topic/thread. This is about an opinion on the traditional method, as I see it, from my perspective; not anyone else's.

Review what the thread was about. It's not teaching methods.

Why do I have that opinion? Perspective and experience. Both of which are outside the scope of this topic. This isn't about me. This was an opinion, one of many put forth in response to a question in this topic. I clarified from a guitar-learning perspective examples of problem areas with the Traditional Method. I have a problem with it. I have reasons; chief among them, is the time it takes. That's my point of view.

In regards to point two, I'll defer that answer to you. How would anyone ever know my claims are valid? Good question. Let's remove me from this though, and use a variable.

How does person A determine the validity of X?

It's okay to be suspicious, if that's what you are. Am I now responsible to appease your feelings?

Also, I don't have an "argument"; I have made a statement.

I never said I am a world class teacher. That is definitely not an opinion I hold at all. What I teach is a different story, than my skill sets as a teacher.

And to clarify my point:

The skills, (most of them) in that list, are useful, some aren't, but how they are taught and learned via, the Traditional Method, is where I have the problem.

We good?

Let others talk and let's keep this topic on point.

You want to know if I will explain what a Traditional Method is. I'll tell you what: ask me a specific question, as to "is "x" for learning "y" what you consider a traditional method?", then I will answer that directly. This way you can play with every permutation of detail until you are happy. That sounds fair to me.


Best,

Sean




I think you were one of the first posters to bring up the term traditional method, so I'll leave that off topic to you.

Okay, addressing the last part of your post: pick any of the thirteen topics you listed. Compare what you consider to be a traditional method, and compare it to your method. I'm surprised that you didn't get to that in your wall of text

Hail is right, youve made yourself comfortable here

PS I promise you won't be teaching me anything (if unpaid teaching is uncomfortable) since I already know the names of notes on a fretboard

Last PS I swear. It's very hard for me to give you an example of a "traditional" teaching method for you tocompare, because I never use the term traditional teaching method, and I didn't bring it up in this thread. That's why I'm hoping you will provide an example, since you seem to have so many issues with it

Last edited by bassalloverthe : 05-26-2014 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 05-26-2014, 06:30 PM   #40
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I have some students who rip right along using traditional methods. I certainly do not use traditional materials for all my students but those who use the traditional materials end up far more well rounded than those who do not but make no stellar progress in any one area at a time.
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