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Old 05-28-2014, 01:55 AM   #81
Vlasco
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I'm not sure that I've ever had that happen in a guitar based band.

I would attribute more value to the skills sight reading develops that aren't related to actually reading through music. Skills such as learning to feel your way around the instrument, see the movement of melodies and chords in a more obvious and meaningful way than the guitar offers, and a more solid mental picture of what certain musical patterns feel and sound like on the instrument.
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Old 05-28-2014, 02:55 AM   #82
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You're missing the entire point...
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:21 AM   #83
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I'm glad we agree
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:34 AM   #84
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I agree with Vlasco.

As a rock guitarist you don't almost ever even need to read music. And sight reading is different. It's being able to play the melody immediately by sight without needing to figure it out first.

I don't know why somebody would force himself to learn a skill that he may use a couple of times in his lifetime. I think it's just a waste of time if you are never going to use that skill. Of course if you are interested in sight reading, go and learn it - and then you should learn it. But if it's not useful for somebody, why would he need to learn it? There are so many different reasons to play the guitar. Somebody plays the guitar just for fun and learns his favorite riffs, basic chords and that's it. Some other wants to become a really versatile musician and guitarist. He may want to learn to sight read (and IMO should). But not everybody's goal is to become a great musician.

There's no right way/reason to learn to play the guitar. People are different. Most guitarists don't need sight reading. Even if it takes just two weeks to be able to sight read (at some level), it's still time that you could have spent better if sight reading isn't what you want to do.
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Old 05-28-2014, 12:25 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax


So, I guess we should all just skip sight reading. You know, because why should guitar players learn how to play any song by sight? I mean, hell...most players can sight read tabs; why shouldn't they learn how to sight read sheet music?


Because...laziness? What a bad excuse.


It's not laziness, it's the time it consumes relative to the amount of times that you'll use it. after over 15 years of teaching I am very comfortable with saying that few players need to learn it, and in an earlier post in this, I outlined the places where it's most essential, or when people should learn to sight read. I do know how to sight read, so I'm not anti sightreading, but its definitely contextual.

I guarantee you the sightreading is a non essential skill for learning and figuring out a song. Knowing and discerning keys, command of the fretboard, and a well practiced ear can usually accomplish all of those things. Understanding keys, Diatonic Harmony, Modal Interchange, extended chord voicings and harmonic function, moduation, inversion, intervals, and secondary dominant concepts, will make transcribing or figuring most things out, short work.

And most players can NOT sight read TAB's.

I'd challenge you there, on one simple basis: rhythms and understanding note subdivision in practice.

@Elintasokas - In my opinion, what CJ did, was not rote memorization because it involved him writing and doing a lot of diagramming, and I'd say that he learned by visual immersion.

@Maggara - I agree with you about technique, but then I don't think learning theory is effective without being provided an outlet and context to immediately apply it. At the Academy, not only do I teach what I do, but there are assignments, playing labs, quizzes, midterms and homework, as well as technique drills integrated with the lectures. Technique is a byproduct of specific correct practice.

I have people ask me, all the time, can I improve their technique. The answer is no, I can't nor can anyone else. I can show you the correct mechanics, and teach you the finer points, but unless they master themselves and practice it consistently, and in a very specific mindset, they aren't going to improve. So, no, I cant improve their technique, but I can provide a structure, and a support system to encourage their own development, so THEY can improve their technique, via correct practice, and more importantly, a correct mindset. But technique is not a motor skill that's picked up by osmosis.

PM me, and I'll hook you up to a soundcloud where I can let you hear the playing comparisons after 12 weeks from students. Not only are they playing well, but they also understand what they are doing, and what you're hearing is complete improvisation under specific structured instructions, merging fretboard concepts and specific theoretical application.

Best,

Sean
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Last edited by Sean0913 : 05-28-2014 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 05-28-2014, 01:01 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
No, you're saying, "Why learn it if they never use it in their genre?" Which is a bullshit excuse that ultimately translates to:

"I PLAY METAL/PUNK/ROCK/BLUES! WHY SHOULD I LEARN TO SIGHT READ?"
Well, maybe because you're supposed to be a musician, as in someone who studies music?

Dude, thats a ridiculous claim to make. Why would you waste so much time on learning something that you won't need. That's just utter stupidity.

You can't be a musician without knowing how to sight read? lol.......

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Old 05-28-2014, 01:18 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elintasokas
Dude, thats a ridiculous claim to make. Why would you waste so much time on learning something that you won't need. That's just utter stupidity.

You can't be a musician without knowing how to sight read? lol.......

Yeah, it's the same as if you wanted to play rock, you would waste your time on learning classical music that you don't even want to play.

@ Sean: Yeah, I understand what you are talking about. Yeah, I think one of the reason why most guitarists that haven't been playing for a long time sound so bad is because they don't know that they sound bad and what they need to improve in their playing. But learning technique still takes time. But yeah, that's pretty obvious. Of course it's faster if you know what you need to improve and how you can improve it.
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Old 05-28-2014, 01:59 PM   #88
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The way I see it is this…

you love music, you love playing guitar. Do what you love, stop worrying about it.
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Old 05-28-2014, 03:09 PM   #89
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^ +1. Not saying you shouldn't learn as much as you can (or can be bothered to), but if you go down the "lazy" route there's always more you could do. You'll get yourself feeling (unfairly, IMO) guilty pretty quickly if you're not careful. And then you'll never be happy (probably... citation needed ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
If I learn a lot of Jazz, I can then take that and apply it to Metal or Rock or Blues.


But then you just sound like TGP elevator music

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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
That's great, and they might have more fun if they were able to use more "tools" (to continue the metaphor from earlier).




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Old 05-28-2014, 05:06 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
The way I see it is this…

you love music, you love playing guitar. Do what you love, stop worrying about it.


If that were the case, then I don't think those same people would be looking backwards reflectively and saying "I wish I'd..." they'd be more like, "I've enjoyed the ride, had a blast and I'm happy with everything"

It seems that those who do "I wish I'ds....", are on some level, less than satisfied with how long things took, relative to their current status today.

Best,

Sean
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Old 05-28-2014, 05:10 PM   #91
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But then you just sound like TGP elevator music

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Old 05-28-2014, 05:14 PM   #92
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I've just played by ear mostly, it has served me well so far.
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Old 05-28-2014, 05:24 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
If that were the case, then I don't think those same people would be looking backwards reflectively and saying "I wish I'd..." they'd be more like, "I've enjoyed the ride, had a blast and I'm happy with everything"

It seems that those who do "I wish I'ds....", are on some level, less than satisfied with how long things took, relative to their current status today.

Best,

Sean


That's a fair point.

I guess you could say you're both right, in a way. GM is sort of saying, "You're doing something you love, just enjoy the ride and don't overanalyse it." You're saying if they were enjoying it they just would love it already.

I dunno.

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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax


I actually like music like that But still, any opportunity to laugh at TGP...
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Old 05-28-2014, 05:45 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Elintasokas
Dude, thats a ridiculous claim to make. Why would you waste so much time on learning something that you won't need. That's just utter stupidity.

You can't be a musician without knowing how to sight read? lol.......



Hi all,

You do at least need to know the treble and bass cleff for at least a mnth, it really helps you understand how to interact with other instruments. You should look at helmholtz notation! it changed my life. I used to beat my self up about sight reading, even at university, everyone was a grade 8 classical piano+ string player. I just played contemporary guitar. That, is the difference. I read TAB "sight READ" effortlessly and know hte CAGED positions that passages fall into instantly. I see the rythum and the tab and can instantly read the song - pretty much anyway. But no one can play at 100% speed sight reading, it defeats the purpose of technique. I personaly am still learning to "target notes", improvise, analyse and compose. and yes, i beleive that there is a simple lesson by lesson step approach, just like karate as an analogy. How long untill your black belt? all the moves are simple proceedures. All and all, if I spent more time humming and la la la-ing along to my amp as i played I would speak guitar with my eyes closed + I wouldnt be able to analyse a lead voicing passage harmony without score above the tab !!!
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Old 05-28-2014, 06:03 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
The way I see it is this…

you love music, you love playing guitar. Do what you love, stop worrying about it.

This is the best post of the thread.
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Old 05-28-2014, 08:56 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
If that were the case, then I don't think those same people would be looking backwards reflectively and saying "I wish I'd..."


oh some may, some may not. My point is that if you play alot and you enjoy it, you will most certainly be getting better at the guitar. You learn stuff, make mistakes, learn more…. it's all part of it. and like it or not it DOES take time to become a proficient player regardless of whether or not you memorized the note names on the neck in 1 weekend or not.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
they'd be more like, "I've enjoyed the ride, had a blast and I'm happy with everything"


well, they would still be aware of things that need work, and still have goals. The difference is they wouldn't be other thinking and worrying about everything, which gives them the ability to enjoy the ride.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
It seems that those who do "I wish I'ds....", are on some level, less than satisfied with how long things took, relative to their current status today.

Best,

Sean


I would say those people will never be satisfied, and will always be looking for someone or something to blame.


My overall point is that it If you love doing something, you'll do it often. People tend to get good at the things they do often.

and it DOES take time. How much time varies from person to person based on their situation, and this is OKAY. Put in the kind of effort that you can put into it. Enjoy it. Don't worry about.


worst,

Munk


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Old 05-28-2014, 10:47 PM   #97
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I would say those people will never be satisfied, and will always be looking for someone or something to blame.


I agreed with some of your post, but not this line. Some people are always driven to learn more - and this is a very positive force.

I may be hard on myself, but I know that I've never been satisfied with my playing... and I don't foresee this changing anytime soon because I know I still have more to learn. I don't need to *look* for anyone to blame either because I place the blame squarely on myself. Anytime I'm in a band that falls apart (for whatever reason), I always blame myself for not playing better. It happens. I learn from it and I use it as motivation.

In general, I know what you meant to say, so I'm not trying to be a jerk. Let me put it this way: I like to play ice hockey (I suck at ice hockey ). I do it for fun. I have a dumb desk job during the week, and this is my exercise. It's kinda social. I do enjoy it. But I do not plan on becoming an NHL player. I do, however, plan on writing an original album based on my guitar playing. It might be the other way around for somebody else (i.e. some people might want to be in a band primarily to be social), but I take guitar very seriously. This doesn't stop people from giving me hockey advice - and my level of interest does not make them wrong.

I enjoy ice hockey. I enjoy guitar. It's possible to have goals in one but not the other. (Pun intended.)
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Old 05-28-2014, 11:36 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjohnson122989
I agreed with some of your post, but not this line. Some people are always driven to learn more - and this is a very positive force.


being driven to learn more, and not being satisfied with your playing are 2 different things.

You can be completely satisfied with your playing, and still have the drive to learn more.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cjohnson122989
I may be hard on myself, but I know that I've never been satisfied with my playing... and I don't foresee this changing anytime soon because I know I still have more to learn. I don't need to *look* for anyone to blame either because I place the blame squarely on myself. Anytime I'm in a band that falls apart (for whatever reason), I always blame myself for not playing better. It happens. I learn from it and I use it as motivation.


This is exactly what I'm talking about. You're never satisfied and you DO blame someone, yourself.

Your motivation to practice your guitar is based on this idea that "you should be better". So in order to attain that you practice/study more. I see that as pointless because the result is the same….. your still unsatisfied.

See if you love playing, the pleasure you get from playing is very motivating. People often mistake being satisfied with your playing as being complacent, but that's not the case. It just means your smart enough to accept where your at, and can appreciate it for what it is. You know that if you keep playing you'll get better, so you don't obsess over it. You still learn new stuff, you still have goals.

I find this approach much more realistic, appealing and enjoyable then the "I'm not as good as Guthrie Govan, so I better keep practicing".









[

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Old 05-28-2014, 11:50 PM   #99
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worst,

Munk



I just got pranked...

Well played!

Worst,

Sean

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Old 05-29-2014, 12:01 AM   #100
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I just got pranked...

Well played!

Worst,

Sean




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