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Old 06-04-2014, 03:17 AM   #21
AeolianWolf
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Old 06-04-2014, 07:41 AM   #22
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Hey! What do you know...?

I knuckled down and used those 2 chords and doll'd with the Lydian mode and it sounded pretty niffty actually. Def not the sort of sound i usually float with, in terms of writing to, listening to or playing to...but it was a great change of pace.



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Old 06-04-2014, 09:20 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elintasokas
Oh please don't start this again.

What? This is the pertinent distinction between modal and non-modal music. "Modal" doesn't just mean all the notes fit into the same scale - then all music would be modal. Modality is an approach to harmony that takes the emphasis away from harmonic motion.

The progression in the example contains a pretty clear secondary dominant (B7), which strongly implies functional harmony rather than modal. But because the same lydian scale contains all the notes from A, B7, and Emaj, it can also be looked at modally.

In situations where you have an actual chord progression, you really don't want to use a modal approach, because you'll completely lose the effect of changes in harmony, and the melodies will sound weak. And on the other side, if you're playing a modal thing, you don't want to outline chord tones, because the harmony isn't really going anywhere, so chord-based melodies won't resolve as easily.

Last edited by cdgraves : 06-04-2014 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:41 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by cdgraves
What? This is the pertinent distinction between modal and non-modal music. "Modal" doesn't just mean all the notes fit into the same scale - then all music would be modal. Modality is an approach to harmony that takes the emphasis away from harmonic motion.


yes. very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
The progression in the example contains a pretty clear secondary dominant (B7), which strongly implies functional harmony rather than modal. But because the same lydian scale contains all the notes from A, B7, and Emaj, it can also be looked at modally.


no. this contradicts what you said in paragraph 1. the E7 - Amaj prevents this from being perceived as lydian at all, as you said. so while the first sentence is spot-on, the second is patently untrue -- this cannot be looked at modally.

i feel that it's important to point out (for the benefit of any reader in musical training that has made it thus far) that while you acknowledge that B7 is functioning as a secondary dominant, you also referred to it as signaling a key change earlier in the thread, and this is not true because the tonic does not change at all. a secondary dominant is generally not convincing enough to change a key on its own, especially in the case of a repeated progression where it serves as a V/x.
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Old 06-05-2014, 04:41 AM   #25
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I had piece performed recently which was built off one chord that didn't move anywhere. That could be argued as being 'modal' even though I didn't think of it that way. TS (or anyone else), send me a message if you would like the link.
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Old 06-05-2014, 11:13 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by flaaash
Every way I look at doing Gmaj7#11 - it looks awkward as heck.

I really should expand my comfort zone more often.


just flat the 5th of a GMaj7 chord. (b5 = #4 = #11)

R, 7, 3, #11 will get ya there.
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Old 06-05-2014, 05:47 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
yes. very true.



no. this contradicts what you said in paragraph 1. the E7 - Amaj prevents this from being perceived as lydian at all, as you said. so while the first sentence is spot-on, the second is patently untrue -- this cannot be looked at modally.

i feel that it's important to point out (for the benefit of any reader in musical training that has made it thus far) that while you acknowledge that B7 is functioning as a secondary dominant, you also referred to it as signaling a key change earlier in the thread, and this is not true because the tonic does not change at all. a secondary dominant is generally not convincing enough to change a key on its own, especially in the case of a repeated progression where it serves as a V/x.


I was simplifying for to make the idea more clear to the original post. Yes, it's a tonicization, not a modulation(depending on rhythm and structure).

The presence of the dominant at the end doesn't preclude modality in the rest (though I think this case is ambiguous). It's not like a completely black and white thing - the same piece of music can be modal AND have functional chords. Plenty of modal music changes key a few times and then uses V7 to reestablish the original key.

Either way, the progression in question can be viewed as either modal or tonal, but the way it was written out earlier, it has too many elements of functional harmony to consider it strictly modal. I think a listener would hear circle of 5ths and secondary dominants and have a natural expectation for non-modal melodies. The B7 really sets up an expectation for a tonal resolution.

Now, if those chords were stated were stated at great rhythmic/structural length, like 8 bars each, and dressed up with extended harmonies, it would look more like an unambiguously modal chord sequence. For example, 8 bars each of AM7#11, B13, EM9, F#m11, and just use the E7 for a turnaround. In that case, you would have a lot of sensible modal options, such as changing the mode with each new harmony, or using the same mode across all the chords.
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Old 06-05-2014, 06:26 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
I was simplifying for to make the idea more clear to the original post. Yes, it's a tonicization, not a modulation(depending on rhythm and structure).


by bringing up unrelated terminology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
The presence of the dominant at the end doesn't preclude modality in the rest (though I think this case is ambiguous). It's not like a completely black and white thing - the same piece of music can be modal AND have functional chords. Plenty of modal music changes key a few times and then uses V7 to reestablish the original key.


one of the very essences of modal music is that it lacks chord function (EDIT: or it is at least extremely suppressed), and the example given is certainly not ambiguous -- unless, of course, you consider || C | A7 | Dm | G || to be D dorian and C major (it's not, though).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
Either way, the progression in question can be viewed as either modal or tonal, but the way it was written out earlier, it has too many elements of functional harmony to consider it strictly modal. I think a listener would hear circle of 5ths and secondary dominants and have a natural expectation for non-modal melodies. The B7 really sets up an expectation for a tonal resolution.


no, it cannot. it's in a major key with a V/V, for the very reasons you listed here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
Now, if those chords were stated were stated at great rhythmic/structural length, like 8 bars each, and dressed up with extended harmonies, it would look more like an unambiguously modal chord sequence. For example, 8 bars each of AM7#11, B13, EM9, F#m11, and just use the E7 for a turnaround. In that case, you would have a lot of sensible modal options, such as changing the mode with each new harmony, or using the same mode across all the chords.


TS is definitely not talking about 8 bars on each chord. that's a very different situation and depends on a multitude of factors that are of no benefit to discuss here.
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Last edited by AeolianWolf : 06-05-2014 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:53 PM   #29
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I apologize if I was unclear - I do not think this thing is modal. It has functional harmony written all over it.

But here it is in a thread about modes, for some reason, so I thought I'd see how this might work if it were modal.

The "8 bars" example was to demonstrate how this differs from a more straightforwardly modal piece of music.

That said, it is not unusual for a modal song to contain a V7 for the sole purpose of re-establishing the tonic, after moving to another key/mode. The turnaround is a point of structure. That doesn't change that the rest of the piece is approached from a non-functional perspective.

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Old 06-06-2014, 05:25 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
by bringing up unrelated terminology?.


I'm down with new learning new terminology. My musician lexicon is never too full.


Are there any 'pop' songs that are modal? By pop I mainly mean mainstream music, not necessarily current Billboard top 100 songs. It sounds like there may not be many (or any).
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:51 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flaaash
I'm down with new learning new terminology. My musician lexicon is never too full.


Are there any 'pop' songs that are modal? By pop I mainly mean mainstream music, not necessarily current Billboard top 100 songs. It sounds like there may not be many (or any).


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Old 06-06-2014, 01:59 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by flaaash
I'm down with new learning new terminology. My musician lexicon is never too full.


this is a good way to think, but you want to be careful of learning which terminology discusses concepts that are related to terminology discussing other concepts. you don't want to learn about a noun, verb, and adjective while you're trying to focus on things like alliteration or assonance.
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Old 06-07-2014, 08:55 AM   #33
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Amazing!!!

I've been doing more reading about modes, this time the mixolydian mode and i actually understand terminology much better than before.

For example

Quote:
So, what makes a good Mixolydian progression? Well, you need to have the note. Which note? The note. Each mode has one note that truly defines it. In the case of Mixolydian, it's the b7th. (It's always the note that makes the mode different)


I totally get what phrases like that mean. How there's a definitive note (notes?) that sets apart the Ionian and Mixolydian mode apart, likewise the Aeolian and Dorian.

I've still got loads of questions but I'll get there...0
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Old 06-07-2014, 09:09 AM   #34
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Nice :P Everything (about theory in general) was kinda confusing to me for a long time, but once I got it, I learned everything pretty fast. It's natural because everything in music is connected somehow.
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Old 06-07-2014, 10:10 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by flaaash
Amazing!!!

I've been doing more reading about modes, this time the mixolydian mode and i actually understand terminology much better than before.

For example



I totally get what phrases like that mean. How there's a definitive note (notes?) that sets apart the Ionian and Mixolydian mode apart, likewise the Aeolian and Dorian.

I've still got loads of questions but I'll get there...0


You are getting there! "The note" is what you will rely on to make modal music from a melodic standpoint. From a harmonic standpoint, modes are about learning what chord progressions accomadate this note without sacrificing the tonic quality of the tonic chord
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Old 06-07-2014, 10:00 PM   #36
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Am I on the right track to getting a hold of this concept?

If I cross between the two chords Emaj, Emaj7 and Bmin, would it be 'proper to solo over it with the E Mixolydian mode (E, F#, G# #. A, B, C#, D).

This is based on the Ionian mode carries a Bmaj chord.

Edit I added the E7 chord after the original post.

Last edited by flaaash : 06-07-2014 at 10:07 PM.
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Old 06-08-2014, 05:40 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by flaaash
Am I on the right track to getting a hold of this concept?

If I cross between the two chords Emaj, Emaj7 and Bmin, would it be 'proper to solo over it with the E Mixolydian mode (E, F#, G# #. A, B, C#, D).

This is based on the Ionian mode carries a Bmaj chord.

Edit I added the E7 chord after the original post.

Emaj7 is not mixolydian at all. It has a major 7th instead of the minor 7th that is what makes mixolydian mixolydian. Use E7 instead of Emaj7.

Learn about chord construction and itervals and it's a lot easier to understand.
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