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Old 06-09-2014, 11:48 AM   #21
eazy-c
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Wow...


Care to elaborate on your condesencion?

Given that (pretty much) no one here was contemporary to Master of Puppets, it's pretty hard to gauge just how influential it was; but given it's commercial success and the relative inaccessability of underground metal at the time I can't see any other thrash albums having the same impact.
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Old 06-09-2014, 12:15 PM   #22
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Agreed, Sabaton are great. However I don't think Heroes is their best work, the two previous albums have more weight to them. But they are a really, really,really consistent band!
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Old 06-09-2014, 12:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eazy-c
Care to elaborate on your condesencion?

Given that (pretty much) no one here was contemporary to Master of Puppets, it's pretty hard to gauge just how influential it was; but given it's commercial success and the relative inaccessability of underground metal at the time I can't see any other thrash albums having the same impact.


Finally someone posts sense.

This thread reeks of elitism for the sake of it. OH LOL YOU LIKE MASTER OF PUPPETS LOL AT YOU.

I mean come on guys, sure it's a widely accepted album, but that doesn't stop it being good and BECAUSE of it's wide appeal, important for the metal scene.
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:05 PM   #24
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Orion was a great track
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:09 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by HamburgerBoy
A number of them were fairly unimportant and certainly not nearly as broad in scope as Master of Puppets. Darkness Descends? Excellent album but at best it was just one step in extremity ahead of Slayer. Endless Pain? Dated even for 1985, Petrozza's vocals being the only notable element. RIP? Cool album but again not particularly significant, even in the niche realm of tech-thrash. Schizophrenia? At least pick their earliest death metal material, not their first step towards American thrash. Manilla Road? Basically inconsequential and with some incredibly poor songwriting.

Of course, Puppets didn't kickstart an entire extreme metal movement like Slayer and Hellhammer/Celtic Frost did, so under certain contexts I can definitely admit that it is overrated, but when you look at posters above and some of the albums on that "Best Of Thrash" list, it's just silly underdog-fellating.

You're really using popularity as a criteria for judging these releases? You're basically arguing that Master of Puppets is the be-all-end-all of the genre because it's famous and hordes of crap bands like FFDP and Trivium and Avenged Sevenfold sing its praises, while highly creative and original albums like Awaken the Guardian or Crimson Glory's self-titled (both of which were released around the same time) are on a lower level simply because they didn't get the exposure or because there are less people capable of emulating them. Otherwise you wouldn't be arguing that Manilla Road are "inconsequential" in the face of the wide swath of bands that cite them as an influence and the respect that their recent releases get (something that has eluded Metallica for going on 30 years).

I love Master of Puppets, but you are wildly overstating how "creative" it actually is. Thrash - and heavy metal in general - was already well beyond that point when it came out, and negating the work of bands that actually pushed boundaries because they didn't reach as many people is juvenile. The only thing on Master of Puppets that I would consider truly unique is Orion - the rest is well-written, sure, but in what ways did Battery or Leper Messiah really change the game for thrash metal or the genre as a whole?
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Old 06-09-2014, 01:20 PM   #26
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But surely the "importance" on a wider influence scale of the less popular bands is well... less simply because of the logic of not as many people knowing about them.

Doesn't mean they weren't better than Metallica and MoP but their influence surely can't be argued to be as great simply based on the numbers?
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Old 06-09-2014, 02:37 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eazy-c
Given that (pretty much) no one here was contemporary to Master of Puppets,


cough cough
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Old 06-09-2014, 02:39 PM   #28
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:16 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scourge441
You're really using popularity as a criteria for judging these releases? You're basically arguing that Master of Puppets is the be-all-end-all of the genre because it's famous and hordes of crap bands like FFDP and Trivium and Avenged Sevenfold sing its praises, while highly creative and original albums like Awaken the Guardian or Crimson Glory's self-titled (both of which were released around the same time) are on a lower level simply because they didn't get the exposure or because there are less people capable of emulating them. Otherwise you wouldn't be arguing that Manilla Road are "inconsequential" in the face of the wide swath of bands that cite them as an influence and the respect that their recent releases get (something that has eluded Metallica for going on 30 years).

I love Master of Puppets, but you are wildly overstating how "creative" it actually is. Thrash - and heavy metal in general - was already well beyond that point when it came out, and negating the work of bands that actually pushed boundaries because they didn't reach as many people is juvenile. The only thing on Master of Puppets that I would consider truly unique is Orion - the rest is well-written, sure, but in what ways did Battery or Leper Messiah really change the game for thrash metal or the genre as a whole?


Scourge, you posted more or less what I wanted to say. I'm just going to refer to you from now on.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:20 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HamburgerBoy
Manilla Road? Basically inconsequential and with some incredibly poor songwriting.


oof, you cut me deep.


why all the cries of "elitism!"? i haven't seen anyone flat out say they think MoP is terrible because it's Metallica and popular. everyone just seems to be saying that it's not the greatest of all, because ya know... it really isn't.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:37 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
Finally someone posts sense.

This thread reeks of elitism for the sake of it. OH LOL YOU LIKE MASTER OF PUPPETS LOL AT YOU.

I mean come on guys, sure it's a widely accepted album, but that doesn't stop it being good and BECAUSE of it's wide appeal, important for the metal scene.

But no one's saying MoP was bad. It's good and did have some influence. But to say it's the "be-all-end-all" for Metal is kind of like saying that the Chrystler Town and Country is the "be-all-end-all" for minivans.
Yeah, Town and Country is a good car, and a lot of people like it. It has some great features. But there's other cars that are excellent too.
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:43 PM   #32
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It might've not been particularly innovative within the metal-sphere, but it was within a wider popular music context; which it operated in, unlike every other release discussed here. Surely that sort of boundary-pushing is just as important as anything musical? As alternative to Bon Jovi, it's pretty fucking mindblowing stuff.

Although, by this thought-process, I'd argue The Black Album is far more important (and better).
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Old 06-09-2014, 04:50 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eazy-c
It might've not been particularly innovative within the metal-sphere


and that's the point. OP called it a perfect metal album. it is not. that's really all there is to it.
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:01 PM   #34
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I mean would I be wrong in thinking that Slayer had a much more lasting impact on the Metal scene anyway?

I mean when I hear bands influences I don't often hear Metallica outside of fagcore bands. I always hear Slayer
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:02 PM   #35
eazy-c
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Who gives a shit about what OP had to say? I thought we had moved on.

EDIT: ^ Are Metallica not pretty much everyone's gateway to Slayer though?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.

Last edited by eazy-c : 06-09-2014 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:05 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by eazy-c
Who gives a shit about what OP had to say? I thought we had moved on.


no, this is still the same thread and that is what was being discussed...
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:09 PM   #37
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Shouldn't we get back to Sabaton then?
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The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:16 PM   #38
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sure but no one seems to care about them. The OP was mostly about how MoP is the best metal album ever which is why that has been the main point discussed.

I really don't get why I am explaining this to you right now as you can read just as well as I can.
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:20 PM   #39
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That's because they're a bit shit.
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Originally Posted by ChemicalFire
The point of underground bands is their not popular or famous most of the time. Thus there is a good chance they suck.
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Old 06-09-2014, 05:27 PM   #40
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Had a greater influence on the evolution of metal
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Listening to Casus Luciferi
The phone rings
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A voice says "You will die from AIDS in seven days"
"Who is this?" I cry, panic taking hold and wavering my voice.

"Filthy Casual" the voice croaks back in return.
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