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Old 04-19-2007, 04:26 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Johnljones7443
The second inversion would be N6/4, not N6. 6 is used to notate first inversion, and is the inversion the N chord is usually played in.

meant first .
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:47 PM   #82
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Sorry for the n00b question (though they are welcomed), but what is a Neopalatin inversion?
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Old 04-19-2007, 09:56 PM   #83
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29 Read to get inverted chords.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord Read on the Neopolitan chord.

To summarize, a Neopolitan in a given key is a major chord, with the flatted second of the key as the root.

So, in C major, the second is D, and the flat second is therefore D flat. The Neopolitan in C would contain the notes of a Db major triad, which are Db F Ab.

A Neopolitan chord is also usually in first inversion. This means that the third of the chord is the lowest note. So, in the key of C, we have our Neopolitan. The third of the Neopolitan is F, so that is the bass note, and the Db and Ab would be above it.


If this is confusing, there should also be some other threads around on Neopolitans, if you use the search bar.
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Old 04-20-2007, 12:00 AM   #84
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... can I say something...?

... you people are INSANE! I mean, where in the bloody world do you learn all this stuff? It's just... aye, makes my head spin....
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Old 04-20-2007, 08:24 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mexican_shred
meant first .


Ah sorry mate.

4 chords. 2 chords per bar. Name them and give them a function.
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:25 AM   #86
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Could be way off, I hardly ever read bass clef but here goes...

Cmaj9 - A7 - Dm7 - G9

I - V/ii - ii - V
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:26 AM   #87
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^Excellent.
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Old 04-20-2007, 10:10 AM   #88
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Name each chord & the scale they are all derived from

Code:
E5--------------6----- B6---6-----8----8----- G7---7-----7----6----- D7---7-----8----7----- A5---X-----7----------- E ----6------------------
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Old 04-20-2007, 10:19 AM   #89
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D-
BbΔ
E
A7b9

All from D harmonic minor.
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Old 04-20-2007, 10:39 AM   #90
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^right on
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Old 04-20-2007, 11:12 AM   #91
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E - Aalt - Ab7#11 - Galt - C7

Using tritone substitution, write out the above chord progression in 7 more unique ways. You only need to change the 3 chords in the middle.

I know I've done this kinda thing before, but I'm short on ideas, so it'll have to do, ha ha - and it'll still be interesting to see how the people who didn't see it last time get on with it. (Karim - you're exempt from this one, ha ha).
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Old 04-20-2007, 12:46 PM   #92
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ummm....i guess the tritone sub for Aalt is D#alt, for Ab7#11 is D7#11, and for G alt is C#alt.

So now you take those and you can sub in seven ways, changing:

only 1st
only 2nd
only 3rd
1st & 2nd
1st and 3rd
2nd and 3rd
all three
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Old 04-20-2007, 01:40 PM   #93
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^No, the TT sub for Aalt isn't D#alt, the TT sub for Ab7#11 isn't D7#11 and the TT sub for Galt isn't C#alt. TT subs for _alt chords and _7#11 are both in the same scale.

Edit: As in _alt = _7#11 from the same (melodic minor) scale. So if we have Balt from the altered mode in C mel minor, the TT sub is F7#11 from F lyd-dom (also from C mel minor... ). So basically, _alt subs to _7#11 and 7#11 subs to _alt within the same scale.

You're right in the format you wrote, but that's slacking - so you have to write it out, ha ha.

Last edited by Johnljones7443 : 04-20-2007 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 04-20-2007, 05:26 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnljones7443
E - Aalt - Ab7#11 - Galt - C7

Using tritone substitution, write out the above chord progression in 7 more unique ways. You only need to change the 3 chords in the middle.

I know I've done this kinda thing before, but I'm short on ideas, so it'll have to do, ha ha - and it'll still be interesting to see how the people who didn't see it last time get on with it. (Karim - you're exempt from this one, ha ha).
wtf...

I saw it and I was like.. huh that's easy!

then I saw the " Karim you're exempt from this one "

Anyways, not a big deal... if nobody gets it after 24h or so, I'll post the answers!
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Old 04-20-2007, 06:13 PM   #95
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Is this what you're looking for?

Eb7#11 - Ab7#11 - Galt

Aalt - Dalt - Galt

Aalt - Ab7#11 - Db7#11

Eb7#11 - Ab7#11 - Db7#11

Aalt - Dalt - Db7#11

Eb7#11 - Dalt - Galt

Eb7#11 - Dalt - Db7#11
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Old 04-20-2007, 07:21 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnljones7443
^No, the TT sub for Aalt isn't D#alt, the TT sub for Ab7#11 isn't D7#11 and the TT sub for Galt isn't C#alt. TT subs for _alt chords and _7#11 are both in the same scale.

Edit: As in _alt = _7#11 from the same (melodic minor) scale. So if we have Balt from the altered mode in C mel minor, the TT sub is F7#11 from F lyd-dom (also from C mel minor... ). So basically, _alt subs to _7#11 and 7#11 subs to _alt within the same scale.

You're right in the format you wrote, but that's slacking - so you have to write it out, ha ha.



hmm, so let's see if i can learn this, please help me out here.

the A alt scale is A Bb C Db Eb F G A...i guess for our purposes is A Bb B# C# Eb E# G A.

Aalt contained the notes A C# G and possibly Eb, E#, Bb, B#.

So Eb7#11 would be the sub for Aalt. It contains the notes Eb G Bb Db A, all of which are found in the A alt scale.

What I thought was the answer, let's say Ebalt, contains: Eb G Db and possibly Bbb, B, Fbb, F. Not all of these are found in the alt scale, so we don't use this.

If this made sense, then let me ask another question. Why in particular do we use the #11 to sub for the alt and vice versa, instead of another chord drawn up from that scale? If we were substituting for an A7 chord, the resultant chord would not contain the note A itself, but the Eb7#11 does. So basically, I'm asking for an explanation or resource to learn about substitutions for extended and altered chords in general, and why they work.
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:32 AM   #97
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^The reason we use the _7#11 chord as a substitution for the _alt chord is because they both resolve in the same way. Alt chord tends to resolve down a 5th, up a half step and down a major third, _7#11 chords on the other hand tend to resolve down a half step, up a 4th and up a whole step. Now, if we use A7alt and Eb7#11 as an example.. the strongest resolution for each chord is to exactly the same chord.

A7alt down a 5th - DΔ
Eb7#11 down a half step - DΔ

A7alt up a half step - BbΔ
Eb7#11 down a 4th - BbΔ

A7alt down a major third - FΔ
Eb7#11 up a whole step - FΔ

Each chords strongest resolution is to the same chord as the _7alt a tritone away. Another reason is the nature of chords built from the melodic minor scale, they are all interchangeable with one another. Play a standard voicing of C-Δ over a C bass note, then play the same voicing over a D bass note. The resulting chord will feel and function like a Dsusb9 chord, over an E bass - you get a lydian augmented feel and an EbΔ#5 chord.

This works for all 6 functioning chords in the 'key' of C melodic minor, C-Δ, Dsusb9, EbΔ#5, F7#11, A and B7alt - because all the chords are in essence the 'same' chord, they all give the essence of the same sound - because the notes used to build them are not found in any other scale. The root, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th when played together define the 'key' of that particular melodic minor scale. The reason we have no G chord in there is because the G chord built from C mel minor is normally substituted with a chord from the melodic minor scale a minor third away, so instead of G7 from C mel minor, G7alt from Ab mel minor is used.

So if A7alt and Eb7#11 are both the 'same' chord - they both imply the same tonality and resolve strongest to the same places, which is why we use them both interchangeably. Instead of substituting A7alt for Eb7alt, because Eb7alt won't imply the same tonality (it would imply an Ab melodic minor sound) and it will not resolve as smoothly as it's _7#11 cousin (it would want to resolve to AbΔ, Ab-Δ, EΔ etc..)

And yes Stash Jam, you're up mate.

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Old 04-21-2007, 01:15 PM   #98
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soloing over an Am13 chord, you can use 3 different minor pentatonic scales (based off 3 different Am13 chord tones)

Name them
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Old 04-21-2007, 01:37 PM   #99
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Am pent off the root.
Em pent off the 5th.
Bm pent off the 9th.
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Old 04-21-2007, 02:15 PM   #100
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awesome john, that is extremely helpful. i'm surprised you're not a moderator...yet

just a small clarification and question....you said for the G chord we use that from Ab. That's is a major third from C. Is this what you meant or is the problem elsewhere (or am I just confuse). Also, is Mark Levine's book a good source for all this jazz harmony stuff, i've been meaning to buy it because all the reviews are spectacular.
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