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Old 04-25-2013, 07:45 PM   #62801
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Originally Posted by Dreadnought

yeah, doubt anything serious is going to be done about it.
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Old 04-25-2013, 08:02 PM   #62802
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Originally Posted by NotFromANUS
Evolution does not always happen in the textbook, slow manner. See the evolution of human language. Chomsky is a good place to start.

Language is a technology. If you want to start down that road we could include computers as part of human evolution.
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Old 04-25-2013, 08:45 PM   #62803
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Originally Posted by ali.guitarkid7
yeah, doubt anything serious is going to be done about it.


When it's only suspicions, yeah. This could easily coalesce.

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Old 04-25-2013, 10:42 PM   #62804
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Has anyone heard of the All Nations Party?

http://allnationsparty.com/

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UC2AopvAmRGD2rGjG6PK97Hg

This site is also concerned with pansecessionism: http://attackthesystem.com/
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:59 AM   #62805
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Originally Posted by captaincrunk
Language is a technology.

No. You're making the novice error of conflating language with its externalization. I'm talking about the actual evolution of language in humans, not the development of its various externalizations (which even then, I'm not convinced they would constitute a technology).
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Old 04-26-2013, 01:00 PM   #62806
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Originally Posted by captaincrunk
But that's just the point. Evolution takes dozens, even hundreds of generations for reasons such as this. You wouldn't see a sizeable difference for hundreds, maybe even thousands of years. And with the liberalization of the West, human rights, all that stuff... I'd be surprised if we allowed it to happen that way.


Except this isn't speciation, it's simply certain groups diverging as genetic populations on some trait or other. That sort of thing can happen shockingly fast under strong enough selection conditions. Also part of my question that maybe didn't get across is just how a liberal society could prevent it, short of some serious eugenics programs (hi ANUS).

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While I'm sure (literally certain) most of my beliefs on the subject are bitterly hated, I would respectfully recommend that one cross political goal to overcoming this problem is to help prevent the cultural decline of the working class and poor by promoting stronger families. Healthy families nurture intellectual growth and character development, as well as reduce the odds of all sorts of anti-social behavior. All of this is communally related to the intelligence of populations.


Not convinced by this argument. Same twin studies that helped establish the heritability of intelligence also show that the influence of shared environment on twins intelligence drops close to zero as they age. Either family effects are acting to make siblings less similar, in which case a simple pro-family position doesn't seem to cut it, or family influence drops off in favour of other factors as children age.

Not familiar with the other issues but am wary of a lot of research in this area (seems quite rare that shared genetic makeup is involved), no strong position on "promoting stronger families" although I feel it's the kind of statement you could fit any policy under.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:36 PM   #62807
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Originally Posted by leeb rocks
part of my question that maybe didn't get across is just how a liberal society could prevent it, short of some serious eugenics programs

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Not convinced by this argument. ... a simple pro-family position doesn't seem to cut it

Oh, I agree. Simply promoting stronger families isn't remotely close to a sufficient response. However, your former statement, specifically the desire to stop "short of some serious eugenics programs," makes coming to any real pro-active stance on this issue all but impossible. There really aren't any 'liberal' solutions to this problem, except perhaps certain 'liberal' (i.e. voluntary) eugenics programs (e.g. paying certain people to agree to be sterilized). But people don't want to hear that either.

You will find no easy answers or comfortable truths in tackling this issue.

*edit: For an alternative perspective on this issue, I would recommend looking into the work of Thomas Sowell. He argues that large differences in IQ between various populations can be overcome in a relatively short period of time and that there are many examples of such throughout the world.

Last edited by NotFromANUS : 04-26-2013 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:52 PM   #62808
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Originally Posted by leeb rocks
Yeah I imagined Rawls would provide a palatable system to work with. My main worry is genetic segregation though, didn't imagine anyone who wasn't a shit would advocate throwing these people to the wolves.

I don't know that genetic segregation would become a problem here though. Evolution, particularly in a highly mobile population like humans, is far more complex than many people give it credit for.

There's going to be a huge amount of genetic drift etc in play with this, and we don't really understand what the selective pressures are going to be either.


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Probably the biggest problems but there is the further problem that intelligence is predictive (and a pretty strong case can be made for it being causal) of life outcomes such as lifespan and general well being. If these effects aren't a result of life choices made by the individuals (which I imagine most here would say they have every right to make) then there's the possibility of genetic segregation of the chance at a healthy and long life as well as along the lines of intelligence.


It's predictive of those things because we organise society along lines to make it so. If we organise society correctly there need be no terrible effect to being dealt a poor genetic hand; certainly not health outcomes which are hugely linked to inequalities and poverty in the first place.
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:43 PM   #62809
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Am I right to understand that the issue being discussed here is the widening gap between the intelligent, and often rich, and the unintelligent, and often poor and it's ramifications for society in the near future?
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:51 PM   #62810
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Originally Posted by NotFromANUS
Oh, I agree. Simply promoting stronger families isn't remotely close to a sufficient response. However, your former statement, specifically the desire to stop "short of some serious eugenics programs," makes coming to any real pro-active stance on this issue all but impossible. There really aren't any 'liberal' solutions to this problem, except perhaps certain 'liberal' (i.e. voluntary) eugenics programs (e.g. paying certain people to agree to be sterilized). But people don't want to hear that either.


Yeah seems that way. Always the possibility that as knowledge of genetic science spreads further and we become more able to act on that knowledge that a eugenics driven by individual choice and selection without positive or negative influences needing to be exerted (Razib Khan's covered this on his blog a fair bit).

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotFromANUS
You will find no easy answers or comfortable truths in tackling this issue.

Yeah, can certainly understand the backlash behavioural genetics has gotten since it's inception (think this it's really backwards but it's not pleasant).


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Originally Posted by NotFromANUS
*edit: For an alternative perspective on this issue, I would recommend looking into the work of Thomas Sowell. He argues that large differences in IQ between various populations can be overcome in a relatively short period of time and that there are many examples of such throughout the world.


Yeah read a bit of Sowell's on the matter here and there but never been particularly convinced (big changes like the Flynn effect tend to be attributable to test bias rather than real changes).

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Originally Posted by Ur all $h1t
I don't know that genetic segregation would become a problem here though. Evolution, particularly in a highly mobile population like humans, is far more complex than many people give it credit for.

There's going to be a huge amount of genetic drift etc in play with this, and we don't really understand what the selective pressures are going to be either.


Depends to what extent of separation. Anything resembling speciation is absurd of course but if pressures remain consistent with a narrow IQ heritability of minimal .4 and with continued selection for social success built on intelligence I reckon noticeable gaps could potentially show up much faster than anyone would like (not in our lifetimes I imagine though). Whether those pressures remain consistent is the big question but really amounts to crystal ball gazing at this point.

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Originally Posted by Ur all $h1t
It's predictive of those things because we organise society along lines to make it so. If we organise society correctly there need be no terrible effect to being dealt a poor genetic hand; certainly not health outcomes which are hugely linked to inequalities and poverty in the first place.


It seems to have a deeper connection with these things than simply social outcomes, connections with Myelin integrity and facial symmetry being just two signs that intelligence may in part reflect broad biological influences (which selection by intelligence would pick up). Another point is that a great deal of early deaths associated with low intelligence aren't from the big causes like heart disease or cancer but are disproportionately accidental or violent deaths; but of course here we're probably back at letting people carry out individual choices.

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Originally Posted by Abomination94
Am I right to understand that the issue being discussed here is the widening gap between the intelligent, and often rich, and the unintelligent, and often poor and it's ramifications for society in the near future?


yup.
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Last edited by leeb rocks : 04-26-2013 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 04-26-2013, 06:58 PM   #62811
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That looks like the girl from Schindler's List grew up to be pretty hot. Obviously they airbrushed out the '251795' on her arm
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:03 PM   #62812
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That last picture is my personal favourite. I love black and whites *fapfapfap*
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:17 PM   #62813
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Then perhaps the real issue is our societal structure?
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:29 PM   #62814
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Originally Posted by Abomination94
Then perhaps the real issue is our societal structure?

Sociology 101: It's always the fault of the societal structure.
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:32 PM   #62815
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Then you have to wonder why no-one is drawing attention to it. Although, I have a fairly good idea why that might be.
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Old 04-26-2013, 07:33 PM   #62816
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Originally Posted by Abomination94
Then you have to wonder why no-one is drawing attention to it. Although, I have a fairly good idea why that might be.

Jews controlling the media?
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:25 PM   #62817
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Originally Posted by leeb rocks
Always the possibility that as knowledge of genetic science spreads further and we become more able to act on that knowledge that a eugenics driven by individual choice and selection without positive or negative influences needing to be exerted

I think to a certain extent there will be natural pressures towards future/developing eugenics programs, such as genetic screening to prevent severe birth defects and abnormalities, but ultimately I believe any significant eugenics program will require some type of incentive.

Quote:
Yeah read a bit of Sowell's on the matter here and there but never been particularly convinced (big changes like the Flynn effect tend to be attributable to test bias rather than real changes).

Yeah, I don't really buy his arguments either, but I thought it was worth throwing out there.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:42 PM   #62818
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Jews controlling the media?


Well, yeah. Media, governments and big business corporations consist of these rich and intelligent people, they're also the people in charge of controlling the rest of the population, I highly doubt these people who live in the lap of luxury and excess are going to want their lifestyles to change, despite how unjust, unfair and unequal the system may be. No, they like the status quo and will do what it takes to keep it that way. It's an abuse of power, I believe it is the responsibility of those who are intelligent to make decisions for the greater good of all humans, instead our world leaders are greedy and self-interested. The inevitable result of a materialistic, capitalist-consumer society. This excessive and gluttonous lifestyle they lead will burn itself out eventually, and unfortunately we will all suffer for it.

That's a very simple explanation of my viewpoint, I could get more in depth but I'm tired. Thoughts?
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:55 PM   #62819
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I dont understand how people can think that the white man jew controls the world when China is a superpower. The Asians have just as much power as the whites in this world.
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Old 04-27-2013, 12:03 AM   #62820
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I dont understand how people can think that the white man jew controls the world when China is a superpower. The Asians have just as much power as the whites in this world.


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