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Old 06-27-2015, 11:59 AM   #1
Dolphin Guitar
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Major scale and modes which to learn 2 or 3 notes per string

Hi im wondering which type to learn I have seen the major scale in box diagrams taught two different ways. one way with 3 notes per string and the other way has sometimes 2 notes per string
here is the tab to explain better.


Ionian 3 notes per string
-------------------------------------------------- -----------------------10-12-13
---------------------------------------------------------10--12--13------
-------------------------------------------9--10--12---------
-------------------------------9--10-12----------------------
-----------------8--10--12---------------------------------
---8--10--12--------------------------------------------

Ionian 2 notes pet string

-------------------------------------------------------------7- 8--10---------------------------
----------------------------------------------------8--10------------------------------------
---------------------------------------7--9--10-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------7--9--10------------------------------------------------------------------
----------- 7--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------

i was wondering if someone can tell me the advantages of each type and tell me which to learn
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Old 06-27-2015, 12:31 PM   #2
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do what you like the most..at first..after when you KNOW the fretboard and scale patterns in ALL keys..you will be able to use any and all patterns..actually at that point..patterns disappear..

but to start..so it is not confusing-choose the one you like the most and really KNOW it..ascending and descending..after you have it down..then experiment with alternative fingerings
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Old 06-27-2015, 12:39 PM   #3
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I mainly use pentatonic scale and the 2 notes per string major runs along the same pattern with a few added notes. however the 3 notes per string ones go very diagonal and are harder to fret.
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Old 06-27-2015, 01:37 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by wolflen
do what you like the most..at first..after when you KNOW the fretboard and scale patterns in ALL keys..you will be able to use any and all patterns..actually at that point..patterns disappear..


i wouldn't go that far

that would require a guitar player being able to infer bulk information and translate that into functional understanding

halfway through that sentence every guitarist reading this drank a 12 pack of beer and started yelling about how metallica started sucking after the black album
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Old 06-27-2015, 02:08 PM   #5
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Both.

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Old 06-27-2015, 05:14 PM   #6
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I generally use the second fingering because i like having arps on my 2nd, 1st and 4th finger. Dont know why.
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Old 06-27-2015, 05:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolphin Guitar
Hi im wondering which type to learn I have seen the major scale in box diagrams taught two different ways. one way with 3 notes per string and the other way has sometimes 2 notes per string
here is the tab to explain better.


Ionian 3 notes per string
-------------------------------------------------- -----------------------10-12-13
---------------------------------------------------------10--12--13------
-------------------------------------------9--10--12---------
-------------------------------9--10-12----------------------
-----------------8--10--12---------------------------------
---8--10--12--------------------------------------------

Ionian 2 notes pet string

-------------------------------------------------------------7- 8--10---------------------------
----------------------------------------------------8--10------------------------------------
---------------------------------------7--9--10-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------7--9--10------------------------------------------------------------------
----------- 7--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------

i was wondering if someone can tell me the advantages of each type and tell me which to learn


The positions aren't modes. Focus on the major scale for now and get that down.

The major scale is one large pattern across the entire fretboard. But to help you learn it you can break it down into smaller pieces.

There are many different ways to break it down and each has it's own upsides and downsides.

The first method you mentioned is called the 3nps (3 notes per string). The concept is simple - each shape starts on a different note of the major scale along the low E string. Thus there are seven different patterns. Starting on that note you play the notes of the major scale assigning three notes to each string.

The second method you mentioned is probably the CAGED method. This method uses root notes, and the different tonic chords across the fretboard as a basis around which to build the scale. There are five shapes in this method. I prefer this method because it ties the scale shapes to chords and to the root notes. But it is often handed out with the student encouraged simply to memorize the patterns with little effort made to ensure the student understands the logic to enable a deeper understanding of the fretboard.

One of the biggest problems I have with the first method is that it is often taught with the positions named after one of the seven modes. This is very misleading because it doesn't really have anything to do with modes. However, proponents of the first method often say that because there are the same number of notes per string it makes it faster to play runs and easier to remember.

But to be hones I think Jet nailed it. Learn both. Then you have the benefits of both.

So please don't associate positions or scale patterns with modes.

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Old 06-27-2015, 07:44 PM   #8
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I like 3 nps (and 4) because it's easier to move between positions of a scale.

Also, modes have nothing to do with this. You're learning the major scale.
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Old 06-27-2015, 09:46 PM   #9
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Old 06-28-2015, 05:59 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
The positions aren't modes. Focus on the major scale for now and get that down.

The major scale is one large pattern across the entire fretboard. But to help you learn it you can break it down into smaller pieces.

There are many different ways to break it down and each has it's own upsides and downsides.

The first method you mentioned is called the 3nps (3 notes per string). The concept is simple - each shape starts on a different note of the major scale along the low E string. Thus there are seven different patterns. Starting on that note you play the notes of the major scale assigning three notes to each string.

The second method you mentioned is probably the CAGED method. This method uses root notes, and the different tonic chords across the fretboard as a basis around which to build the scale. There are five shapes in this method. I prefer this method because it ties the scale shapes to chords and to the root notes. But it is often handed out with the student encouraged simply to memorize the patterns with little effort made to ensure the student understands the logic to enable a deeper understanding of the fretboard.

One of the biggest problems I have with the first method is that it is often taught with the positions named after one of the seven modes. This is very misleading because it doesn't really have anything to do with modes. However, proponents of the first method often say that because there are the same number of notes per string it makes it faster to play runs and easier to remember.

But to be hones I think Jet nailed it. Learn both. Then you have the benefits of both.

So please don't associate positions or scale patterns with modes.



Arnt modes just modifications of the major scale? so therefore Ionian is the major scale unchanged ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) and Dorian is with a b 3 and 7 (1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) and so on..
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Old 06-28-2015, 10:35 AM   #11
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These are all valid, if slightly differently nuanced, understandings of what modes are. The scale formulae are more useful when dealing with standard note notation (instead of tab).
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Old 06-28-2015, 11:03 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolphin Guitar
Arnt modes just modifications of the major scale? so therefore Ionian is the major scale unchanged ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) and Dorian is with a b 3 and 7 (1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) and so on..

Well, sort of. But they have nothing to do with 3nps or any other scale shapes.
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Old 06-28-2015, 01:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolphin Guitar
Arnt modes just modifications of the major scale? so therefore Ionian is the major scale unchanged ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) and Dorian is with a b 3 and 7 (1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) and so on..


no

if somebody says "ionian" about anything, ever it's an immediate red flag that they don't have a clue what they're talking about. even if you were to be playing modally, i would have a hard time acknowledging anything as ionian (or aeolian for that matter) unless it was sheer exercise

we've been trained so long by functional harmony and the western system that if we hear ionian and aeolian, it's major and minor. they're not the same thing. modality got swallowed up like 600 years ago and reinforced with a much stronger sense of cadence and maneuverability.

saying the wrong names because they sound cooler is just an easy way to get eyerolls by anyone who knows what they're talking about
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Old 06-29-2015, 05:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolphin Guitar
Arnt modes just modifications of the major scale? so therefore Ionian is the major scale unchanged ( 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7) and Dorian is with a b 3 and 7 (1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7) and so on..
The point I was making is that they aren't positions. So if someone shows you the second "position" of the 3nps method and says that because you're starting on the second scale degree this is the Dorian mode...then you're getting bad information. It's still just the major scale. The way you described it above is pretty simplistic and without starting Mode War XXXVIII all I will say is that it is much closer to understanding modes than associating modes with a particular scale position on the fretboard.
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Old 06-29-2015, 07:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
if somebody says "ionian" about anything, ever it's an immediate red flag that they don't have a clue what they're talking about. even if you were to be playing modally, i would have a hard time acknowledging anything as ionian (or aeolian for that matter) unless it was sheer exercise


You just said "ionian".
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:22 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolphin Guitar
Hi im wondering which type to learn I have seen the major scale in box diagrams taught two different ways. one way with 3 notes per string and the other way has sometimes 2 notes per string
here is the tab to explain better.


Ionian 3 notes per string
-------------------------------------------------- -----------------------10-12-13
---------------------------------------------------------10--12--13------
-------------------------------------------9--10--12---------
-------------------------------9--10-12----------------------
-----------------8--10--12---------------------------------
---8--10--12--------------------------------------------

Ionian 2 notes pet string

-------------------------------------------------------------7- 8--10---------------------------
----------------------------------------------------8--10------------------------------------
---------------------------------------7--9--10-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------7--9--10------------------------------------------------------------------
----------- 7--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--8--10---------------------------------------------------------------------

i was wondering if someone can tell me the advantages of each type and tell me which to learn


I learnt the scale and modes going towards the bridge starting with the index finger on the root and towards the headstock starting with my pinky on the root - this really opens up the fretboard because you can go left or right for any chord.

However, I just watched a master class with Kurt Rosenwinkel ( arguably the best guitar player on the planet right now ) and his approach is smarter - he starts the patterns with his middle finger on the root notes ( theres a video on you tube where he discusses this). This gives you more flexibility to mix chord voicings and intervals with your scales because you have access to your index, ring and pinky. You can go left or right after playing a chord, rather than be committed to one direction like when you start a pattern with your index or pinky. This is crucial when mixing comping with solo lines, though less applicable for rock or metal.
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Old 06-29-2015, 08:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehannum
You just said "ionian".


fuck
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Old 06-29-2015, 01:02 PM   #18
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The various positions and fingerings of major/minor scales on the guitar are kept organized by being named with their MODAL names. They are not modes.

They look like modes, they're spelled like modes.

But just playing C major from E to E is not E Phrygian.

This confusion is the source of most of the modal misinformation out there. We borrow those names to keep things organized, but modal harmony and modal scale usage is a totally different ball game.
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Old 06-29-2015, 09:23 PM   #19
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Just learn the major scales up and down the neck for now. Then when you do get to modes, you will make a shocking discovery.
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Old 06-30-2015, 03:42 PM   #20
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It really doesn't matter. What does matter is learning the major and minor scale properly. Don't worry about modes.
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