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View Poll Results: Creationism vs. Evolutionism
Creationism 654 16.07%
Evolutionism 2519 61.91%
Rawr! Dinosaurs! 896 22.02%
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Old 12-16-2007, 02:59 PM   #81
bequickorbedead
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Originally Posted by Blind In 1 Ear
yea and that is fu*king stupid sorry to say. when you do that, you are just picking and choosing what you think is best. its not about actual evidence anymore. its just personal opinions and dont really mean anything when finding answers. if you think god guided evolution, your belief isnt backed up by any side. its illogical to believe in this. the two as is dont mix and when you try to mix them, its useless because it isnt backed by anything.


You don't know anything about religion, do you? It doesn't need to be proven 100%. There are still large parts of evolution still unexplained by science, and people use faith in God and the bible to fill in the blanks. It's no different than using faith in evolution to fill in the unproven parts in it. All 3 theories take a certain amounts of faith to believe in because none have been proven without reasonable doubt...
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Old 12-16-2007, 02:59 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Mutant Corn
Pseudo-science...like when soil samples from several parts of the world showed evidence of the flood in a time period corresponding to the one mentioned in genesis? Or maybe when one of king Solomon's stables was found by archaeologists that corresponded to the size the kingdom was supposed to be? Or when the story of Jesus was predicted over 800 years before his birth? Or when astronomers found that the "star" over Jesus's birth was actually there near the time when he was supposed to be born?

...I could go on with this all day...


They're historical details not scientific details. And dubious historical details at that.


There have been thousands of floods in the history of the world. The problem there is saying that it must be the flood mentioned in genesis. There's no real evidence to say that it is that flood, people simply assume that because the bible says there was a flood, and they found evidence of floods in places across the world along time ago, they must some how be interelated.


As for the star part, there are literally countless stars. I'm sure there were stars above where jesus was supposedly born at some point in history.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:00 PM   #83
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It says in the book of Genesis, referring to the creation of animal life that God created first the fish of the sea, followed by the birds of the air, followed by the beasts of the earth, after which finally came man.

Here is my theory as to how, exactly, this fits into historical context. From the beginning, it has been my belief that the seven days described in genesis are, in fact, seven eras or indeterminate lengths of time.

As is recognized scientific fact, the first animals were sea-dwellers. Fish and the like. There’s your “fish of the sea”.

Followed by them were the famed prehistoric beasts, the dinosaurs. Now, of course, most dinosaurs were land dwellers, but it is very important to note that this is when the first animals capable of flight appeared. Furthermore, several well-known dinosaur species are, in fact the ancestors of birds. The T-rex, for example,
unceremoniously evolving into the humble chicken. There’s your “birds of the air”.

Then, of course, the dinosaurs died out, and in came the ice age. It was at this point a new manner of creatures came about, entirely land-dwelling: mammals. No fliers here. Just earth-dwelling, fur-covered mammals. There’s your “beasts of the earth”.

And, towards the end of the ice age came none other than us. Man. And then, the Lord our God rested. It’s funny how just those few verses actually (fairly accurately) cover several billion years of pre-human existence.

And that's my theory on creation and evolution
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:00 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Mutant Corn
Pseudo-science...like when soil samples from several parts of the world showed evidence of the flood in a time period corresponding to the one mentioned in genesis? Or maybe when one of king Solomon's stables was found by archaeologists that corresponded to the size the kingdom was supposed to be? Or when the story of Jesus was predicted over 800 years before his birth? Or when astronomers found that the "star" over Jesus's birth was actually there near the time when he was supposed to be born?

...I could go on with this all day...

please do. two of those things arent impressive. the ark stuff is laughable. the flood as described in the bible couldnt have happened and is embaressing to believe in. besides, you dont think different parts of the world could have had a flood around the same time? around the same era? thats not even evidence of noah's ark or any of that story. thats just evidence of flooding. it happens all the time. but there isnt any evidence of a global flood and the very notion of one isnt supported by any science. there isnt enough water in the first place.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:04 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by rizo299
They're historical details not scientific details. And dubious historical details at that.


There have been thousands of floods in the history of the world. The problem there is saying that it must be the flood mentioned in genesis. There's no real evidence to say that it is that flood, people simply assume that because the bible says there was a flood, and they found evidece of floods in places across the world along time ago, they must some how be interelated.



Umm, no. Almost every major culture in the world records such an event, and the soil samples I mentioned indicate an immensely massive flood, in all of those places, at the same time.

And how was Jesus's story dubious? There were over 300 prophecies pertaining to him, written by several different people, many living in separate centuries from one another, and he matched them all. The odds against some random person person being able to do that are millions to 1, which by scientific definition means it can't happen.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:09 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by bequickorbedead
You don't know anything about religion, do you? It doesn't need to be proven 100%. There are still large parts of evolution still unexplained by science, and people use faith in God and the bible to fill in the blanks. It's no different than using faith in evolution to fill in the unproven parts in it. All 3 theories take a certain amounts of faith to believe in because none have been proven without reasonable doubt...


please explain in your own words the large parts of evolution that are unexplained.

evolution has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt actually. its not up for debate. ive already explained that its a proven event. i suggest you reasearch evolution and science for that matter.

faith is described as believing in something without logical proof or material evidence. science and evolution have these things. therefor, there is no faith required. meanwhile, there is no evidence of god, there is no evidence that god used evolution....in fact, its illogical to believe in god.

when you believe in god, you either have to accept that he wasnt created. he was the first cause. but seeing as no one knows if he even exists, its illogical to believe the universe needed a creator. if you accept that god doesnt need one, you accept that somethings just dont need to be planned or created. and occams razor tells us to deal with what is known first. god doesnt fit in there. we know the universe is here. so logically, until there is evidence of god there is no point of working him in in any theory.

so there you have it. you need faith because there isnt any logical proof or material evidence. but there is for science. if there are unknown parts, no right thinking scientist would say they know the answer if they cant back it up. but they use evidence and logic to try and explain these parts.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:10 PM   #87
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I didn't elaborate. What I said was that I am a creationist which means belief in a creator (intelligent design). I am by no means saying evolution is non-existent. Because there is proof of it. Organisms do change from generation to generation. But also proof of evolution does not mean that there was no intelligent design. Saying that would also be a logical fallacy.
Nevermind, then.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:11 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Mutant Corn
Umm, no. Almost every major culture in the world records such an event, and the soil samples I mentioned indicate an immensely massive flood, in all of those places, at the same time.

And how was Jesus's story dubious? There were over 300 prophecies pertaining to him, and he matched them all. The odds against some random person person being able to do that are millions to 1, which by scientific definition means it can't happen.



I sure there have been plenty of floods int he history of the world. And I'm sure that most cultures have been affected by one at least once. And its quite possable that at some point a number of floods happened in a relatively short space of time. How that is proof of the biblical flood however, is something you should explain to me. Because, frankly, thats not exacty something that would be accepted in court. Soil samples, believe it or not, don't come with exact dates on them. I doubt even the best scientists with the best equipment in the world could say that all those floods happened on march 3rd 3000 BC. Even the most accurate testing would only be able to date those floods within 100 years or so of each other.

As for the prophecies. You don't believe your horoscope do you? Vague, broad descriptions of something that is almost certainly going to apply to some event eventually.

Millions to 1? Hardly.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:12 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Mutant Corn
Umm, no. Almost every major culture in the world records such an event, and the soil samples I mentioned indicate an immensely massive flood, in all of those places, at the same time.

And how was Jesus's story dubious? There were over 300 prophecies pertaining to him, written by several different people, many living in separate centuries from one another, and he matched them all. The odds against some random person person being able to do that are millions to 1, which by scientific definition means it can't happen.


there were actually many people around that time claiming to be the messiah. they even performed miracles and fulfilled prophecies.

as for the flood, id like to see a source of these soil samples because ive never heard of anything that indicates a massive flood. as for a record, no its not uncommon for a flood story. but really, thats not evidence of one. many similar stories are recycled in almost every religion.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:14 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by rizo299
I sure there have been plenty of floods int he history of the world. And I'm sure that most cultures have been affected by one at least once. And its quite possable that at some point a number of floods happened in a relatively short space of time. How that is proof of the biblical flood however, is something you should explain to me. Because, frankly, thats not exacty something that would be accepted in court. Soil samples, believe it or not, don't come with exact dates on them. I doubt even the best scientists with the best equipment in the world could say that all those floods happened on march 3rd 3000 BC. Even the most accurate testing would only be able to date those floods within 100 years or so of each other.

As for the prophecies. You don't believe your horoscope do you? Vague, broad descriptions of something that is almost certainly going to apply to some event eventually.



Vague...like when it was predicted that a virgin would give birth? Doesn't sound too vague to me. Plus, all 300 something didn't just apply to some random guy someday...they all applied to the same guy within 30 years.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:14 PM   #91
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Nevermind, then.



I should have elaborated. I didn't phrase my first post well.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:17 PM   #92
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Vague...like when it was predicted that a virgin would give birth? Doesn't sound too vague to me.

what evidence is there that that story even happened? what evidence is there that she was even a virgin?
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:18 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by garden of grey
I don't have time for a big argument right now, but I would like to throw out an observation:

I find it interesting that you can rely on ancient cultures recording techniques to conclude that a world wide flood happened all at once. It would be hard to tell if some of these big floods were months apart, let alone decades or centuries.

HOWEVER, you can't trust carbon dating. Even though it is extremely accurate, you are able to ignore that it can predict as far back as 60,000 years. You won't trust a scientific procedure that is very accurate even in it's broadest terms but you can make sense of an impossible worldwide flood out of vague references that are hard to date.

and im pretty sure these soil samples need to be dated.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:19 PM   #94
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People who believe in creationism are actually ******ed.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:19 PM   #95
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what evidence is there that that story even happened? what evidence is there that she was even a virgin?


Well for one thing, claiming that she was carryin the child of God was not the easy way out. She risked death from more than one person by doing that.



I don't trust carbon dating because the last time I checked on it, the process had determined that a dead cat, recently deceased, was over 2000 years old.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:20 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Mutant Corn
Umm, no. Almost every major culture in the world records such an event, and the soil samples I mentioned indicate an immensely massive flood, in all of those places, at the same time.

And how was Jesus's story dubious? There were over 300 prophecies pertaining to him, written by several different people, many living in separate centuries from one another, and he matched them all. The odds against some random person person being able to do that are millions to 1, which by scientific definition means it can't happen.


LOL WUT?

I think probability is math, not science. Furthermore, it has odds, which means it's possible.

A problem with the "flood evidence": In your lifetime, how many floods have there been? Several. In different parts of the world. No dating method is exact, which means that there is a significant timespan in which the floods you mention could have happened.

Also: links please. Not to Christian websites, but legit scientific journals.

One more thing: I'm a devout Catholic, I'm just informed enough to know that the Bible is not fact.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:20 PM   #97
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:21 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Mutant Corn
Well for one thing, claiming that she was carryin the child of God was not the easy way out. She risked death from more than one person by doing that.

so? thats not evidence.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:22 PM   #99
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Give me three biologists that believe Creationism is right. Three.
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Old 12-16-2007, 03:24 PM   #100
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LOL WUT?

I think probability is math, not science. Furthermore, it has odds, which means it's possible.

A problem with the "flood evidence": In your lifetime, how many floods have there been? Several. In different parts of the world. No dating method is exact, which means that there is a significant timespan in which the floods you mention could have happened.

Also: links please. Not to Christian websites, but legit scientific journals.

One more thing: I'm a devout Catholic, I'm just informed enough to know that the Bible is not fact.


I don't believe in the whole not possible thing...just stating modern science's definition.
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