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Old 02-26-2008, 11:20 PM   #21
bangoodcharlote
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^Well then, 10 nps is generally considered the cutoff.
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
If you ever find yourself needing to play fast, lots of time spent practicing will allow you to play and not restrict you.


Yeah ofcourse, I agree that practicing will benefit your playing. I just meant the term NPS.

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Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
It's not that hard. Here the formula, assuming x/4 time, x being any positive integer, and the quarter note getting the beat (no compound time!)

Number of Notes to a Beat=A
Tempo=B

NPS=AB/60

So, if you want to know how fast 16th notes are at 150bpm, multiply 170 by 4 (16th notes are 4 to a beat, not 16!) and divide by 60.

4*150/60=10nps.


I guess my point is, why would a person even want to have to make that calculation, when you could just say, I can play 16th notes at XXX speed. (or whatever note value at whatever speed). It's an unnecessary term because it has no direct musical application. it serves to impress the inexperienced, but even as a term meant to solely to impress, it doesn't say all that much.

think about this.

lets say a person says " I can play 15 nps" ( or whatever). Ok wow thats really impressive 15 notes in 1 SECOND!!! amazing.

Ok so now...... what note values? 16ths ??? 8ths? triplets ?? are they played striaight? swung ? what about articulations ?? is it sweep picking ? alternate picked ? economy?
is it a straight scale? is it melodic? straight 16th notes? syncopated rythems?


So my point is, ALL of those other things matter, even if your only goal is to impress.

Someone could play a sweep arpeggio at say 15 NPS, where another person might play something melodic, using accents, or a a syncopated rythem. Whos the better player? with a term like NPS.... youll never know because it focuses on one thing and avoids everything else. I think its a symptom of the genre, and that it promotes a sole focus on speed.

Anyway, its a personal pet peeve and thats my rant. Not meant to offend, but hopefully enlighten.
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:41 PM   #23
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But when you're practicing something for speed, you do care about raw speed. Of course feeling and expression and dynamics are important, but raw speed is an asset as well.

Here's when NPS matters: What is a faster lick, 16th note triplets at 110bpm or 16th notes at 150 bpm? You need to convert both to NPS to discover that the first is slightly faster at 11nps.

Of course note values matter. That's what sheet music is for! But NPS is important as well.
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Old 02-26-2008, 11:53 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
But when you're practicing something for speed, you do care about raw speed. Of course feeling and expression and dynamics are important, but raw speed is an asset as well.

Here's when NPS matters: What is a faster lick, 16th note triplets at 110bpm or 16th notes at 150 bpm? You need to convert both to NPS to discover that the first is slightly faster at 11nps.

Of course note values matter. That's what sheet music is for! But NPS is important as well.


you mean you cant measure speed in any other way?

Im not talking about fast vs slow, or fast vs feeling, im talking about what terms we use to describe it. Im saying NPS doesnt get the job done for anything beyond impressing those that are either unaware or uninterested in the other aspects of music.

Name one reason NPS is better/ more useful or more appropriate than note value / BPM


speaking of sheet music. Is there ever a reason that someone would have to put NPS in the place of the actual tempo?

Is there any musical situation at all in which the term NPS would useful ?
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:00 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
I guess my point is, why would a person even want to have to make that calculation, when you could just say, I can play 16th notes at XXX speed. (or whatever note value at whatever speed). It's an unnecessary term because it has no direct musical application. it serves to impress the inexperienced, but even as a term meant to solely to impress, it doesn't say all that much.

think about this.

lets say a person says " I can play 15 nps" ( or whatever). Ok wow thats really impressive 15 notes in 1 SECOND!!! amazing.

Ok so now...... what note values? 16ths ??? 8ths? triplets ?? are they played striaight? swung ? what about articulations ?? is it sweep picking ? alternate picked ? economy?
is it a straight scale? is it melodic? straight 16th notes? syncopated rythems?


So my point is, ALL of those other things matter, even if your only goal is to impress.

Someone could play a sweep arpeggio at say 15 NPS, where another person might play something melodic, using accents, or a a syncopated rythem. Whos the better player? with a term like NPS.... youll never know because it focuses on one thing and avoids everything else. I think its a symptom of the genre, and that it promotes a sole focus on speed.

Anyway, its a personal pet peeve and thats my rant. Not meant to offend, but hopefully enlighten.


Firstly I don't like your implication that sweep arpeggios can't be melodic, syncopated or accented.

Secondly while the term NPS is note a measure of any musical significance it is somewhat a measure of technical potential in terms or shred that removes all the complications that come with some people practicing in 16ths, 16th triplets, 32nds, 8ths or whatever, it is mainly used as a measure to settle arguments about pure technical ability and has no musical meaning whatsoever, anyone who uses it should understand this first but unfortunately there are those who do not.

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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
Name one reason NPS is better/ more useful or more appropriate than note value / BPM


Because if you're trying to figure out who is fastest having one number that you can compare and say "yes, this guy is faster" is better. No it's not musically useful when writing music but in my learning of some songs I've been able to look at it, work out the nps and figure out that I can't play it up to tempo just yet so I should concentrate on it more because I know my limitations so I know what is going to need more practice.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:04 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Firstly I don't like your implication that sweep arpeggios can't be melodic, syncopated or accented.


I didnt say that. My point was that NPS isnt enough to compare technical ability, because it leaves those other factors out. Someone playing a STRAIGHT arpeggio vs someone playing the same NPS, but incorporating more complicated nuances.... is NOT a fair or acurate comparison. So its not only not at all musical as you admit, its also not very useful as any sort of true measure of skill or technical proficiency.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:09 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
IMy point was that NPS isnt enough to compare technical ability, because it leaves those other factors out. Someone playing a STRAIGHT arpeggio vs someone playing the same NPS, but incorporating more complicated nuances.... is NOT a fair or acurate comparison. So its not only not at all musical as you admit, its also not very useful as any sort of true measure of skill or technical proficiency.


Well that's fair enough, it's mainly used to end arguments by sad bastards on internet forums then
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:17 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Well that's fair enough, it's mainly used to end arguments by sad bastards on internet forums then


LOL

its just a personal pet peeve of mine. When I work on speed in particular, I work on different note values and particular speeds and work them up that way. That way if Im jamming over something, at say 160 BPM.... I know what i can pull off at that tempo.

My approach....use musical terms that can be applied in musical practice. You can still be into playing fast and you can still measure your speed skills and boast to the next shredder. but at least your terms will be consistent and applicable with what your doing... playing a musical instrument.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:22 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
My approach....use musical terms that can be applied in musical practice. You can still be into playing fast and you can still measure your speed skills and boast to the next shredder. but at least your terms will be consistent and applicable with what your doing... playing a musical instrument.


That's very true but as I have (in the past at least) said: only idiots used NPs as something to practice with; music is always the number one aim.
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Old 02-27-2008, 12:26 AM   #30
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I don't know, it just is kind of cool to see how many nps you're playing. bragging about it is of course stupid and immatuire, and if that's what a person is concentrating on they're missing the point.
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Old 02-27-2008, 02:16 AM   #31
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Honestly, "shred" in itself is sort of a style of music. So, as long as it "sounds like shred," then it is. Has a lot to do with energy level and how you phrase notes.

But to answer your question I'd say the majority of "shred-like music" is around 12-16 nps. Some faster, some slower. But I'd say a good majority of it lies in that range.
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Old 02-27-2008, 04:30 AM   #32
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What are you implying im a tool? I dont think theres a limit to speed of shredding, trust me, ive had many arguments about it with varios friends.

I also just want to add, usually shred is complicated licks/riffs, at a fast tempo.


Not you, the posters above you. Sorry for confusion.
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Old 02-27-2008, 10:31 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Galvanise69
though all shred is "good shred"


You obviously haven't looked around nearly enough, there's plenty of bad shred out there.
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:42 PM   #34
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You obviously haven't looked around nearly enough, there's plenty of bad shred out there.

I'd say all "real" shred is good shred. A lot of what is called "shredding" today I would just call "wanking".
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Old 02-27-2008, 04:07 PM   #35
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I'd say all "real" shred is good shred. A lot of what is called "shredding" today I would just call "wanking".


I'd say shred is shred no matter the quality, good shred is just good music like anything else.
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Old 02-27-2008, 05:06 PM   #36
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It's just a matter of opinion, really.
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Old 02-27-2008, 05:15 PM   #37
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Old 02-27-2008, 06:55 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
Name one reason NPS is better/ more useful or more appropriate than note value / BPM
NPS leads to meaningful numbers, 11, 13, even 16.7 is meaningful. If you have 16th notes at 150 bpm, that's 10 nps, as well as meaningful units; notes per second makes sense, even if it has little use aside from a pissing contest. If you use your equation to with 16th notes at 150 bpm, you get .1067 note minutes/(beat)^2. WTF does that mean? Additionally, the higher the number, the slower the playing, which is counter-intuitive. For this reason, we use notes per second to standardize speeds and compare 16th notes at 150 bpm with 16th note triplets at 120 bpm.
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Old 02-27-2008, 07:50 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
NPS leads to meaningful numbers, 11, 13, even 16.7 is meaningful. If you have 16th notes at 150 bpm, that's 10 nps, as well as meaningful units; notes per second makes sense, even if it has little use aside from a pissing contest. If you use your equation to with 16th notes at 150 bpm, you get .1067 note minutes/(beat)^2. WTF does that mean? Additionally, the higher the number, the slower the playing, which is counter-intuitive. For this reason, we use notes per second to standardize speeds and compare 16th notes at 150 bpm with 16th note triplets at 120 bpm.



the thing is they are NOT meaningful numbers in any musical way. How many notes that can be played in a second is irrelevant to any music oriented discussion. What IS relevant, is the tempo.... which IS in beats per minute, and the many different possible note values.
You should never have to calculate how many notes you can play in a second, or in a minute. it has no musical relevance.

ask yourself this: if its such a useful term, why are guitarists.... specifically shred guitarists... the only ones that use it? Type in notes per second, or NPS in google. Find anything that doesnt relate to shred guitar?? You wont because it was INVENTED by shred guitarists that needed a way to make what they do SOUND more impressive.

A musician will impress listeners with their art, with how they use the materials to express themselves. Shredders impress other shredders with their stats (NPS). And they dont know enough about music to see it for it is. ( I dont mean ALL guitarists that shred.... just the ones that use NPS as a common term)


here is a pretty funny article

http://eatdrinkeat.blogspot.com/200...per-second.html

I love this line:

" When you express your speed in terms of notes per second instead of saying something like "64th notes at 200 bpm," you know you've truly, once and for all, transcended music. "
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Old 02-27-2008, 08:23 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
the thing is they are NOT meaningful numbers in any musical way.
We're not talking about music. We're talking about speed. I'm sorry that you don't care about how fast you can play, but since you don't, kindly piss off.
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