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Old 02-28-2008, 09:46 PM   #61
bangoodcharlote
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
shred isn't a genre
It absolutely is. The 80s (and perhaps even more recent) instrumental stuff like Yngwie and Satch qualifies as the genre of shred. There is also the verb "to shred," which just means to play fast.



I also stand by 10 nps as the cutoff point.

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Old 02-28-2008, 10:04 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
I honestly dont understand why you wouldnt just work on say... 16th notes at XXX bpm.
You can compare in the same way, and you can apply it musically. No converting, no calculating. You still have your "stat".... but you can apply it musically.

What if you're playing sixteenth note triplets or septuplets?
By converting to NPS you can easily compare speeds using different note values.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
Also are you saying that NPS is more universally accepted.... than note value / tempo ??? what does universally accepted mean?

The term he used was universally apllicable, meaning it can be applied to any note values at any tempo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
Its only true purpose benefits 1 group of people...... people that need to impress or be impressed by how fast they can play, namely..... shred guitarists.

I'm not speaking for everyone, but I don't use NPS to impress anyone or myself with how fast I play. I use it as a tool to monitor my progress when I build my speed up so I can become a more technically proficient player.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Spamwise
Any thoughts? I know it doesn't matter. I'm not even close. I was just wondering.


maybe 16th notes at 140bpm. It's not just the speed that makes shred. You can play as fast as you want, but the really good shred (Yngwie, Jason Becker, Steve Vai etc) has melodic significance. You hear people claiming to be the fastest, but their melodies suffer from excessive speed. I can go pretty fast, but I can understand it's place. There's a place for speed, and a place for slower stuff. Sometimes, 8th notes laced with bends and vibratos can be more powerful than 32nd notes.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:31 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
It absolutely is. The 80s (and perhaps even more recent) instrumental stuff like Yngwie and Satch qualifies as the genre of shred. There is also the verb "to shred," which just means to play fast.



I also stand by 10 nps as the cutoff point.



Yngwie is Neoclassical metal and Satch is instrumental rock, they both just happen to include shred in their songs.
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Old 02-28-2008, 10:44 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by JL_Shredder
(Yngwie, ... has melodic significance.


Clever use of an oxymoron!
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:19 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Yngwie is Neoclassical metal and Satch is instrumental rock, they both just happen to include shred in their songs.
They're both instrumental rock. The guys that play a lot of instrumental rock with speedy, seemingly impossible guitar playing are considered to be the genre of shred.

Yes, Yngwie can also be considered neo-classical metal, but Shred is an all-inclusive term for any of those mainly instrumental bands from the 80s.
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:34 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by White_Devil
What if you're playing sixteenth note triplets or septuplets?


Wow, you guys are really something else. Sixteenth notes at 120 doesn't mean "sixteenth notes, maybe triplets, maybe sextuplets, maybe x". It means 4 notes per beat at tempo = 120. Period.
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Old 02-28-2008, 11:44 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Vomit Rapist
Wow, you guys are really something else. Sixteenth notes at 120 doesn't mean "sixteenth notes, maybe triplets, maybe sextuplets, maybe x". It means 4 notes per beat at tempo = 120. Period.

I'm not sure if you understood what I meant.
Sixteenth note triplets = Six notes per beat
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Old 02-29-2008, 03:04 AM   #69
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I have a few points of my own to throw out:

First, pertaining to "impressiveness/bragging", I think that saying you can play 15 NPS less amazing sounding than saying that you can play 900 notes per minute.

Next, for measuring personal speed, NPS is more effective: Without calculating it, would you actually be able to tell me that 16th septuplets at 116 BPM are faster than 16th sextuplets at 132 BPM? This could be a possible scenario if you are working on multiple licks. When I train on speed stuff I always do the lick I'm using with a metronome, but I calculate it afterwards so I can compare it to other licks of mine. I generally won't run around bragging that I hit X NPS on X lick. Every now and then it comes up with some guitarist I know, but not to brag.

I agree that using BPM and note divisions is more practical in music (I use it), but I find it less clear as a measurement of speed, which is where I convert it to NPS.

I'll add some more thoughts tomorrow, and I'm happy to debate/discuss this with people so long as everyone stays civilized (it got pretty rough a bit farther back).
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:05 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShred201
I have a few points of my own to throw out:

First, pertaining to "impressiveness/bragging", I think that saying you can play 15 NPS less amazing sounding than saying that you can play 900 notes per minute.


why? because 15 is a smaller number than 900? LOL man thats like a 3 year old kid thinking that 100 pennies is worth more than 1 dollar. I think the shredders that came up with the term NPS, were mentally a little further than a 3 year old.....at least enough to realize that 1 second goes by fast, and that playing alot of notes in that fast amount of time sounds really impressive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShred201
Next, for measuring personal speed, NPS is more effective: Without calculating it, would you actually be able to tell me that 16th septuplets at 116 BPM are faster than 16th sextuplets at 132 BPM? This could be a possible scenario if you are working on multiple licks. When I train on speed stuff I always do the lick I'm using with a metronome, but I calculate it afterwards so I can compare it to other licks of mine. I generally won't run around bragging that I hit X NPS on X lick. Every now and then it comes up with some guitarist I know, but not to brag.
I agree that using BPM and note divisions is more practical in music (I use it), but I find it less clear as a measurement of speed, which is where I convert it to NPS.

I'll add some more thoughts tomorrow, and I'm happy to debate/discuss this with people so long as everyone stays civilized (it got pretty rough a bit farther back).


how is BPM less clear?

16th septuplets at 132 BPM IS faster than 16th septuplets at 116 BPM. throwing in septuplets makes no difference. its the same as it is if it were quarter notes, or 8ths, or 16ths. Faster BPM on the same note value = faster. Its really simple. Alot simpler and much more musically applicable than converting it to anything else. There is NO reason to convert.
The only rebuttal I've seen so far that actually makes any sense is from Spamwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spamwise
I don't know, it just is kind of cool to see how many nps you're playing. bragging about it is of course stupid and immatuire, and if that's what a person is concentrating on they're missing the point.


at least there is no BS here. He doesnt try to justify it in anyway, and admits what he gets out of it. I can respect that, and i agree it IS kind of cool ( as a novelty) to see how many notes you can play in a second.

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Old 02-29-2008, 10:29 AM   #71
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To my above post: It was supposed to say sextuplets at 132 and septuplets at 116. The foment about NPM versus NPS is what I think would have sounded faster to me a few years ago when I was new to this stuff. I didn't say it was actually faster.
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Old 02-29-2008, 10:35 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
why? because 15 is a smaller number than 900? LOL man thats like a 3 year old kid thinking that 100 pennies is worth more than 1 dollar. I think the shredders that came up with the term NPS, were mentally a little further than a 3 year old.....at least enough to realize that 1 second goes by fast, and that playing alot of notes in that fast amount of time sounds really impressive.
Which of these has more meaning: Drive 53 Miles and then exit the highway OR Drive 3358080 inches and then exit the highway? Surely 3358080 inches has no actual meaning to you, while 53 miles on the highway you know to be around an hour. Likewise, 900 notes per minute doesn't have any practical meaning, while 15 notes per second gives you an good idea of speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
how is BPM less clear?
Without doing any kind of conversion, tell me which is faster: 16th notes at 188 bpm or 7:4 16th notes (seven notes in one beat, between 16th note triplets and 32nd notes) at 125 bpm. Obviously someone can say that 16th notes at 130bpm are faster than 16 notes at 129 bpm. But when the tempos and/or note values are different, that's when you need to convert. Likewise, it's easy to say that 100mph is faster than 80 kph. But you need to convert to a common unit to say that 100 mph is faster than 177 feet per second.
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Old 02-29-2008, 01:38 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
Which of these has more meaning: Drive 53 Miles and then exit the highway OR Drive 3358080 inches and then exit the highway? Surely 3358080 inches has no actual meaning to you, while 53 miles on the highway you know to be around an hour. Likewise, 900 notes per minute doesn't have any practical meaning, while 15 notes per second gives you an good idea of speed.



ofcourse notes per minute has no practical meaning.... notes per anything has no practical meaning. (other than the obvious)

Look if your working on speed, as it applies to music than you need to do it in the realm of music. Tempo is in the realm of music, notes per second is not. Keep in mind this forum is called "musician talk"..... why would we talk in anything other than musician terms.

Heres an example. Your working on 16th notes ( or any partciular note value)..... you know you can play them at 140, but you want to push yourself a little.......well, thats as simple as turning the metronome to a faster setting. it doesnt matter how many notes per second your playing.... its a completely irrelevant term. Tempo does the trick just fine.

Now what about a variety of rhythms. Ok, so you work on a piece of music that has a variety of rhythms. You work at it at a certain tempo, lets say 150. You want to push yourself speedwise...... set the metronome faster. again no need for calculations.....tempo is the only necessary indicator of speed. Its a musicians term. It makes sense to use a musicians term in a "musician talk" forum. And yeah its advanced technique. Do advanced players transcend musicianship? I would say no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
Without doing any kind of conversion, tell me which is faster: 16th notes at 188 bpm or 7:4 16th notes (seven notes in one beat, between 16th note triplets and 32nd notes) at 125 bpm. Obviously someone can say that 16th notes at 130bpm are faster than 16 notes at 129 bpm. But when the tempos and/or note values are different, that's when you need to convert. Likewise, it's easy to say that 100mph is faster than 80 kph. But you need to convert to a common unit to say that 100 mph is faster than 177 feet per second.


why would you even want to compare unlike things like that. thats not a useful equation as it assumes that playing XX NPS = XX NPS regardless of the variation in rhythm patterns.... which is NOT the case. That would lead a person to believe that because they can play a sweep arpeggio at 15 NPS.... that they can play anything at 15NPS.... it just doesnt work that way. You still always have to address the situation in the musical realm (BPM / note values) .....why not just stay there?

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Old 02-29-2008, 01:59 PM   #74
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Well you would obviously have to maintain that speed for a whole second to actually play that many notes in a second.

Some of us care how fast something is. We value musicianship too, but you can't fault us for liking speed. For instance, is there anything wrong with those guys who are trying to break the land speed record? Those "cars" aren't always the most beautiful things, but there's something to be said for breaking the sound barrier at sea level, even in an ugly car.

Likewise, I can value something for simply being fast and there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. However, in order to compare pure speeds, the units must be standardized (ex. 100 mph is faster than 120 kph, but you would have to convert everything into mph or kph to mathematically prove that). The only way to say that 7:4 16th notes at 125 bpm is faster than 16th notes at 188 is to convert everything to nps.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:13 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
in order to compare pure speeds, the units must be standardized .


BPM is the standard. Your actually using it, but then needlessly converting it into something else.
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Old 02-29-2008, 02:18 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
BPM is the standard.
No, it's not. How are you not getting that? Compare the speeds of 16th notes at 160 bpm and 16th note triplets at 110 bpm. How is tempo the standard?
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:06 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
No, it's not. How are you not getting that? Compare the speeds of 16th notes at 160 bpm and 16th note triplets at 110 bpm. How is tempo the standard?


BPM is the standard way of measuring tempo. There is no need to compare 16ths @ 160 vs 16th note triplets at 110 bpm. what purpose would that serve?


Whats useful and musically applicable is knowing what you can do at a particular tempo. that way if you are playing over a song at that tempo, you can be confident in knowing what you can and cant pull off at that tempo.

Now, if your not interested in music, but play guitar purely to be competitive in a sportslike manner, you still have to take this into consideration:

one of the biggest misconceptions among users of the term NPS, is that speed = technical proficiency. While it certainly can be an indicator, it is by no means the defining factor of being technically proficient at the guitar ( or any instrument ).

comparing NPS vs NPS is very misleading, because it leaves all other factors out of the statistic. If you want to have a true battle of technical proficiency, you have to take into account ALL factors.
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Old 02-29-2008, 04:32 PM   #78
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You even said it and you don't get it! We use nps when we're turning music into a competition. Some of us are competative and like to be able to play fast! This doesn't mean we completely disregard everything else, but when you're racing, you take speed over sound (accuracy's part of speed).

No, this is not just a dick-measuring contest. I do this plenty and I'm a woman.

That is when you use NPS.
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Old 02-29-2008, 05:04 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
You even said it and you don't get it! We use nps when we're turning music into a competition. Some of us are competative and like to be able to play fast!



If you use NPS to compare skill.... you are disregarding everything else, period. And yes I get it. Whats not to get? the use of the term NPS is a way for shredders to compete based simply on how many notes they can play in a second... nothing more. It allows you to have a "stat" attached to your playing that in many cases can mislead you into thinking that the stat somehow = your technical proficiency on the instrument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bangoodcharlote
This doesn't mean we completely disregard everything else, but when you're racing, you take speed over sound (accuracy's part of speed).


taking one thing over another = disregarding the other thing.

In an artform where sound is the medium... im not sure why you would want to choose ANYTHING over sound. In the end, what it sounds like is what matters. If its fast, but it sounds like crap..... whats the point.... whos going to want to listen to it? If your only interest is speed.... why not just play a sport that involves speed.... like racing ?

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Old 02-29-2008, 05:55 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
If your only interest is speed
It isn't.
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