Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > Music > Musician Talk
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 01-13-2013, 04:07 PM   #21
Scott Jones
Registered User
 
Scott Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis MO USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
Yes, the worst attitude is "I have a music degree in _____. What jobs are there?"

The answer is none. Working in the music industry completely depends on you making a job for yourself. There is no hiring board, there is no career fairs, there is no HR. You become your own business when you want to be a musician.



Yep.
Scott Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 04:12 PM   #22
Scott Jones
Registered User
 
Scott Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis MO USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempoe
Sounds like a lot of work, lot of easier ways to make money for sure.
You'd have to be really passionate about it unless you learned to site read at an early age with piano or something. For the average 16 yr old shredder who's been playing for a couple of years, and can't already site read, the chance of them committing to all this is probably just above nil.


Not true.

Anyone who wants something will do whatever it takes.

The so called average shredder will forever remain average without committing to it.
Scott Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 05:42 PM   #23
Tempoe
. . . ∆ . . .
 
Tempoe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: On an Island
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Jones
Not true.

Anyone who wants something will do whatever it takes.

The so called average shredder will forever remain average without committing to it.


That's why I said You'd have to be really passionate about it
Tempoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 07:16 PM   #24
Scott Jones
Registered User
 
Scott Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis MO USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempoe
That's why I said You'd have to be really passionate about it


What people don't realize is that it takes the same amount of time to do absolutely nothing with their lives as it does to become excellent at something.
Scott Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 07:32 PM   #25
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
 
AlanHB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra, Australia
I'll also add that it astounds me the amount of self proclaimed "professional musicians" who don't act professionally.

At the most basic level I'm talking about showing up on time, learning the songs, taking criticism in stride, adapting and responding to suggestions.

And then we have the extremely widespread "personal preference" inserted into it. "I studied jazz and pop is beneath me", "I'm a metal guitarist what is this ghey stuff" or simply "I don't like this song". Or even worse, they'll take up a gig and proceed to shred all over some acoustic ditty, all in the interests of getting themselves off.

We also have the guys who seemingly improv a new part for a song every single time they play it. I've had one guy say "I'm adverse to playing the same thing twice" ....in the studio no doubt. Look mate I'm sure it's immensely satisfying to improv a new part every time but as we don't know what you're going to put on the record you're fired (and that's exactly what happened).

And then we have the guys who have to needlessly complicate their parts, detracting from the song and ruining grooves. Sorry, I paid you $100 to just play your open E string for 30 mins. Unfortunately you couldn't handle that so you're fired (an extreme example but has also happened in similar circumstances).

Perhaps the most frustrating thing about all these examples is that the player has the physical ability to play what is required from them, but simply choose not to.

Basically it boils down to:

1. The client wants a guitarist who can play the part. If you refuse to play the part, you can't play the part.

2. Learn to identify what parts benefit a song, and what is more to get yourself off.

3. If you are given a part to learn, or are otherwise directed to play something, play it exactly as directed. Don't be tempted to change it in the hopes the client won't notice - they will.

4. If you write a part and the client approves it, don't change it.

5. If you don't like the song nobody cares. Learn to derive your enjoyment for other places (for example, simply playing guitar). Don't do a half assed job on the song because it's not your thing. All you'll be doing is creating your reputation as a half-assed musician, because that's what you are.
__________________
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
AlanHB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 07:42 PM   #26
Scott Jones
Registered User
 
Scott Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis MO USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
I'll also add that it astounds me the amount of self proclaimed "professional musicians" who don't act professionally.

At the most basic level I'm talking about showing up on time, learning the songs, taking criticism in stride, adapting and responding to suggestions.

And then we have the extremely widespread "personal preference" inserted into it. "I studied jazz and pop is beneath me", "I'm a metal guitarist what is this ghey stuff" or simply "I don't like this song". Or even worse, they'll take up a gig and proceed to shred all over some acoustic ditty, all in the interests of getting themselves off.

We also have the guys who seemingly improv a new part for a song every single time they play it. I've had one guy say "I'm adverse to playing the same thing twice" ....in the studio no doubt. Look mate I'm sure it's immensely satisfying to improv a new part every time but as we don't know what you're going to put on the record you're fired (and that's exactly what happened).

And then we have the guys who have to needlessly complicate their parts, detracting from the ongoing and ruining grooves. Sorry, I paid you $100 to just play your open E string for 30 mins. Unfortunately you couldn't handle that so you're fired (an extreme example but has also happened in similar circumstances).

Basically it boils down to:

1. The client wants a guitarist who can play the part. If you refuse to play the part, you can't play the part.

2. Learn to identify what parts benefit a song, and what is more to get yourself off.

3. If you are given a part to learn, or are otherwise directed to play something, play it exactly as directed. Don't be tempted to change it in the hopes the client won't notice - they will.

4. If you write a part and the client approves it, don't change it.

5. If you don't like the song nobody cares. Learn to derive your enjoyment for other places (for example, simply playing guitar). Don't do a half assed job on the song because it's not your thing. All you'll be doing is creating your reputation as a half-assed musician, because that's what you are.


Exactly. Since I am an orchestrator as well. I always see my part as it layers into the bigger picture. I create plenty of outlets where I can show my stuff, so to speak. When playing anything, any song, ever, I always commit to being a benefit to the greater good. If its a live gig that plays a variety of songs, some I like, some I don't, I simply purpose to the simple prospect that if someone walks in at any given moment in any song, that they are given the impression for that 4 minutes, that it is the only style I play.

Last edited by Scott Jones : 01-13-2013 at 07:44 PM.
Scott Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 07:51 PM   #27
ProphetToJables
Tight Tight Tight
 
ProphetToJables's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Telford
As an 18 year old musician (not guitarist, musician) it makes me extremely happy that I entered this thread with this mind set already in play.
__________________
Gear:

Gibson 2005 Les Paul Standard
Fender Road Worn Strat w/ Noiseless pickups
Marshall JCM 2000 401C
Marshall Vintage Modern 2266
Marshall 1960A cab (Dave Hill from Slade's old cab)
Ibanez TS9DX
EHX Little Big Muff
Freshman Acoustic
ProphetToJables is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 08:10 PM   #28
Scott Jones
Registered User
 
Scott Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis MO USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProphetToJables
As an 18 year old musician (not guitarist, musician) it makes me extremely happy that I entered this thread with this mind set already in play.


Excellent! You're on your way!
Scott Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 10:26 PM   #29
axemanchris
Awwww.... NOW what?!
 
axemanchris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Fascinating observation that things like "be able to shred like Vai" or "know the entire Hendrix catalogue" are not in the least bit relevant. It is more about your personal/professional characteristics.

Here is a blog I wrote on a similar topic, but from a slightly different perspective a while back:

http://greenroommusicblog.blogspot....usician-eh.html

CT
__________________
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Quote:
Originally Posted by firehawk
Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
axemanchris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2013, 10:56 PM   #30
will42
UG's bassoon-master
 
will42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
I would also like to point out that being able to work with other musicians is a very important part of careers in the music business. If you take any criticism as a personal insult, or refuse to adapt your style to the situation, then it will be much harder to get jobs than someone who is easier to work with.
__________________
Strauss!
"I am hitting my head against the walls, but the walls are giving way." - Gustav Mahler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
absolutely what will said

Yay, my first compliment!
will42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 01:50 AM   #31
cdgraves
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
I'd love to get work doing commercial music, as a player or arranger. What are some basic genres, styles, or techniques a session/commercial guitarist should demonstrate on a Demo?
cdgraves is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 03:17 AM   #32
Scott Jones
Registered User
 
Scott Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis MO USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by axemanchris
Fascinating observation that things like "be able to shred like Vai" or "know the entire Hendrix catalogue" are not in the least bit relevant. It is more about your personal/professional characteristics.

Here is a blog I wrote on a similar topic, but from a slightly different perspective a while back:

http://greenroommusicblog.blogspot....usician-eh.html

CT


Absolutely freaking brilliant blog entry on the subject.

I'm going to MAKE my students read it. Every. Single one.

That said....

I have NOT had a "plan B" since I made the decision 22 years ago (after 10 years of juggling day jobs and music), to play full time. Period. No matter what.

In the beginning, I wanted to be a rock star, guitar "hero" (before there was such a designation, or video game); then I fell in love with jazz, then fusion, then orchestral music....

For a while, I was a "jazz snob" and would only play jazz gigs....

I made $500.00 playing music that year. The following year, I then took on the attitude of saying "yes" to everything.... I made $60,000 that year (results not typical, LOL).

Right now, current times... I will arrange, compose, orchestrate a huge commissioned piece (for GREAT $$), go off and teach 8 students a night theory to Beatles to "Smoke on the Water" that day, and the next day go off and play a live gig where I play everything from Lady Gaga, Ke$ha, Bruno Mars, Gotye, ACDC, Evanescence (for GOOD $$)...then a jazz gig doing everything from Chick Corea, Wayne Shorter, Oliver Nelson (for decent $$); then come home and simply write or record some piece or solo over a track, for enjoyment, or to challenge myself (for free); then record some guitar tracks for somebody like bassist Ray Reindeau (bassist for Dream Theater's vocalist James LaBrie), and it goes on and on.....

For me.... it is how I pay my bills. I cannot EVER drop my guard or blink for one second, or I don't eat.

I wouldn't have it any other way.
Scott Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 03:18 AM   #33
Scott Jones
Registered User
 
Scott Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis MO USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by will42
I would also like to point out that being able to work with other musicians is a very important part of careers in the music business. If you take any criticism as a personal insult, or refuse to adapt your style to the situation, then it will be much harder to get jobs than someone who is easier to work with.


Indeed.
Scott Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 06:54 AM   #34
AlanHB
Godin's Resident Groupie
 
AlanHB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Canberra, Australia
I have a question Scott. How often are you required to read sheet music on the spot and in what situations is it more/less common?
__________________
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
AlanHB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 07:09 AM   #35
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
I have a question Scott. How often are you required to read sheet music on the spot and in what situations is it more/less common?


this is a good question. any pro giggers i've met (though they didn't play rock instruments) usually had plenty of time to learn the music ahead of time, and the only real time they resorted to sight reading was from juggling several gigs at once rather than a legitimate requirement

outside of auditions, at least
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 08:01 AM   #36
Scott Jones
Registered User
 
Scott Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis MO USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
I have a question Scott. How often are you required to read sheet music on the spot and in what situations is it more/less common?


I have always sight read, in some way, on just about every gig I've ever played (except blues gigs: never; and some rock gigs: where I just had to memorize 45 songs in three days, and had no time to even chart anything out, or when I'm jumping in for someone at the last minute).

--------------

Although, specifically, on one gig in particular....

When I was at the mega church for 18 years, I sight read (past tense) every single time I was on stage.

And in the few years I was just the guitarist there, leading up to becoming the arranger/music director, I would literally wait to look at the music until I got there (on purpose to sharpen my reading chops).

My thinking was that I wanted to challenge myself to read it down.

We'd get recordings and charts (done by the Arranger, early on, or myself later, in Finale) a week in advance, I'd listen through them once to make sure there weren't any crazy surprises (work on those should they exist), then I let it go until the drive in, listen again on the way, then read it down once there. (There were always 2 instrumentals written every week that were brand new, which I HAD to read no matter what). The band was filled with top notch session and live players, so I really had to keep up.

Once I became the guy writing all the music out or arranging it from scratch (plus playing it live), I had a leg up, from the inside, on all the music. From that point, I knew every note, rhythm, chord, harmony, from every member of the band (or orchestra) and every vocalist, because I had transcribed/arranged it all.

We had ample rehearsal time, with the singers having 2 rehearsals 2 weeks in advance; but the band came together the day of the first live service, three hours in advance. We'd basically all read it down, merging with the vocalists, at that point.

(So you get an idea of the kind of gig the church thing was, here's a link to some of my work from that time. My arrangements/transcriptions here. My playing. [We also played with tracks, that I recorded/produced to cover secondary guitar parts, extra keys, drum loops, etc] Some instrumentals here, some with vocals):

http://soundcloud.com/scottjonesmus...j-live-worship/

--------------

Then, (though much of the jazz world stresses memorizing tunes), on jazz gigs, I have always read from the Real Book, or whatever, primarily because I simply don't give a rat what anyone thinks of whether or not I memorized 4000 standards, i just want to play well, and not forgot the changes or melody, so I have always read in those situations.

--------------

Sessions, when they happened in studios (for me, I do most of my tracks for people in my own studio and send them tracks, many of which I just hear my way through).

But back in the day, there would be charts sometimes.

-------------

The cover band I'm in now, I am able to read my quick, handwritten, lead sheets from my iPad and use those on about 8 out of 40 tunes in a night.

(We NEVER rehearse. We all learn are parts on our own time and process, given a few days before the gig, and the first time we EVER hit them together is live).

I hate over thinking or over working a song, so I literally wait until the morning of the gig, whether we have 1 or 4 songs, chart them out really quickly (each song taking about 10 minutes); play through them once, reading the chart to check for mistakes, work on a solo, or whatever; then scan them into my iPad, and let it go until that night.

I'll listen to the songs on the way to get them in my head.

Thats it. All live that night.

Once we've hit the new songs a few times, live, I try and get off the chart. Since we learn 4, sometimes up to 10, songs a week, I'm pretty much always reading something.

--------------

Of course, if someone REALLY wants me to memorize everything, I do it. But for efficiency and accuracy, and because of the high volume of new material, I'd RATHER read.

--------------

MANY gigs that I've done, I haven't read one thing. I'd learn the songs by ear on stage, in the moment, and just go with it.

--------------

Others, I do are pick up gigs, subbing for the regular guy, and I'll just go in and hear my way through it, unless it is specified to prepare more in advance.

--------------

My opinion, at the end of the day, is be ABLE to read, AND be able to hear it live, AND be able to memorize. EACH are skills VITAL to survival in the gigging world.
Scott Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 08:15 AM   #37
Scott Jones
Registered User
 
Scott Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis MO USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
I'd love to get work doing commercial music, as a player or arranger. What are some basic genres, styles, or techniques a session/commercial guitarist should demonstrate on a Demo?


I'd be able to demonstrate as many common styles as possible. The more artsy stuff is fine for stretching your own playing or arranging, but it's less likely to be the thing that gets you the paying work.

I have written or played just about everything, stylistically. Some because it was required, some because I wanted to see if I could pull it off.

I, personally, put it ALL out there on my soundcloud, but should I send out a demo (doesn't really happen anymore), then I would pair it down to a short demo with my strongest, most commonly used abilities, hitting immediately.

You should truly try to immerse yourself in as much music from as many places as possible.

You'd rather not be caught off guard when asked to play or write a certain way.
Scott Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 12:54 PM   #38
ProphetToJables
Tight Tight Tight
 
ProphetToJables's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Telford
Earlier you said you couldn't drop your guard down or you wouldn't eat, I take it that's an exaggeration? You must have savings to fall back on, seems like a dangerous way to live...
__________________
Gear:

Gibson 2005 Les Paul Standard
Fender Road Worn Strat w/ Noiseless pickups
Marshall JCM 2000 401C
Marshall Vintage Modern 2266
Marshall 1960A cab (Dave Hill from Slade's old cab)
Ibanez TS9DX
EHX Little Big Muff
Freshman Acoustic
ProphetToJables is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 01:41 PM   #39
Scott Jones
Registered User
 
Scott Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: St. Louis MO USA
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProphetToJables
Earlier you said you couldn't drop your guard down or you wouldn't eat, I take it that's an exaggeration? You must have savings to fall back on, seems like a dangerous way to live...


Of course it's an exaggeration, but this IS all I do for a living. I have to be diligent and stay in the game if I want this to continue to be my main source of income into the distant future.

I can't see myself playing guitar in a cover band into my old age, so I'll always have composing and orchestrating, arranging and teaching. The key is to not put all of your eggs in one basket.

Last edited by Scott Jones : 01-14-2013 at 01:42 PM.
Scott Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2013, 01:47 PM   #40
Hail
kill both bass players
 
Hail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Dallas
you don't exactly have a boss to call sick days in. you get the flu, you're f'd in the a. no matter how fiscally responsible you are, how well you save, you're never gonna be invincible when you have the level of career control that's afforded to an independent musician.
Hail is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:24 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.