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Old 10-03-2008, 09:36 PM   #41
z4twenny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edg
This thread is a good illustration of why the skill of guitar is shaped like a pyramid.
You have all the masses at the bottom and that's where they usually stay. A few
make it to the top. The only real difference is that those at the top knew what
questions to ask and where to look for answers.

I think until you wake up to that, you're pretty much destined to be a bottom of the
pyramid dweller.


this is so true it almost boggles the mind. the most basic fact is: your hands will move faster when they're ready to

also i agree 100% with what erc said.
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Old 10-03-2008, 09:43 PM   #42
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^ there's actually a lot of luck involved as well. Even though I am obsessive and hardworking in nature, as well as a voracious reader, I probably would have sucked at guitar unless certain people both encouraged me to be creative with the crap I created and admonished me for not playing it to a professional level. As it is now, I could name 3 people without whom I wouldn't even be playing guitar if I hadn't chanced on them or listened to them at the right moment.

Then again, perhaps the most important thing is to get the most out of every opportunity. You get out what you put in...
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:00 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdc
Some people have a desire for speed though ya know? To reach a goal, in terms of shred.

So sometimes playing music has to be put on a back burner for a while, and sacrificed for speed building exercises.




IMO playing music, never has to be put on the back burner....ever. Thats not to say you shouldn't focus on technique, or even speed.... but there is no reason to not work on it in a musical context..... assuming your goals are to play music on your musical instrument.

I've seen so many players fall into that "I've got to get fast" frame of mind. They often let go of the music part as you suggest in order to pursue speed. Unfortunately many never get back to the music part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erc

90% of a musicians technique is in their EARS. I suspect you are making the mistake of focusing too much on the physical elements.


+ 1000000000000
alot of people get so caught up in training their fingers, that they forget about their mind / ears.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erc

The most important practice one can perform is absolutely slow and MUSICAL practice, where the musician experiences every nuance of the music at a slower speed. I can guarantee you that that kind of practice will yield far more results then racing your metronome on your exercise speedway. (I am not saying abandon exercises and metronome practice entirely, they both have their places, but to lose the big musical picture is the worst thing one can do in their practice)



I agree, though I'll just say that the most important practice one can perform is musical practice..... at any speed. obviously there are times when you have to take it slow. My view is that you really shouldn't practice it any faster than you can hear it. That speed will differ from piece to piece and from person to person depending on their skill level.

Last edited by GuitarMunky : 10-04-2008 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:17 PM   #44
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^ while this may seem odd coming from me, as I am fond of playing scales very fast, I wish I hadn't put music on the back burner when I did (2 years ago to about 1 year ago) and instead worked on building a better repetoire - and had the guts to admit it wasn't that I wanted to be a pure "composer/improviser", but rather that I didn't have the follow through to polish up simple songs if I felt I was "better" than them.

Humility is an improvement steroid. I saw no improvement in my ability to follow chord changes until I took it down to no tempo at all and found every chord tone around the neck.

All this stuff is obvious, and it's so much easier to talk the game than to live it, and that's precisely why I'm going to say, as I have in many a lesson -

Go and play your guitars now! (seriously, NOW! I'm going to )
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Old 10-03-2008, 10:21 PM   #45
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You absolutely have to bring both up together.

Ok, lets say a person has a lifetime goal of reaching a virtuoso level of technique at the guitar. So, why would a person want this, given that we are easily talking about 10-25 years of focused practice? To me, a good reason for wanting that is to be able to express oneself without technical limitations getting in the way - so that the music in your head is able to drive what you play, not considerations of what you are able to pull off technically.

Well, with that in mind, if the real goal is to express yourself, then a person should start expressing themselves (imperfectly though it may be) immediately, then as the technique comes up they will gradually be able to express themselves better and better, due to less technical barriers. It makes totally no sense to wait all those years before even trying.
Analogy - does a young child learning to speak wait until he/she has acquired a 10,000 word vocabulary before saying a word?
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Old 10-03-2008, 11:21 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by se012101
You absolutely have to bring both up together.

Ok, lets say a person has a lifetime goal of reaching a virtuoso level of technique at the guitar. So, why would a person want this, given that we are easily talking about 10-25 years of focused practice? To me, a good reason for wanting that is to be able to express oneself without technical limitations getting in the way - so that the music in your head is able to drive what you play, not considerations of what you are able to pull off technically.

Well, with that in mind, if the real goal is to express yourself, then a person should start expressing themselves (imperfectly though it may be) immediately, then as the technique comes up they will gradually be able to express themselves better and better, due to less technical barriers. It makes totally no sense to wait all those years before even trying.
Analogy - does a young child learning to speak wait until he/she has acquired a 10,000 word vocabulary before saying a word?

Bleagh... It kinda does make sense. The only problem here is that we want to play as fast as the guys we listen to, so we play a bunch of exercises to help us play like them. The exercises do help, in a way, and we look up a bunch of tabs to learn our heroes' fast riffs and licks, but what we are doing instead is trying to learn how to play like them, and in turn, search for our own style.

I want the ability to express myself, but also have the proper technique for speed. I'm going to take FP's regret and use it to learn more pieces! I only know like 6, 8... I should really look for slower pieces and practice on those, while also slowing down the ones I already know and improving those.

God, UG is THE place to get knowledge like this!

EDIT: A contradiction. Stupid me.

Last edited by SilverDark : 10-04-2008 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 10-04-2008, 01:16 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverDark
The exercises do help, in a way, and we look up a bunch of tabs to learn our heroes' fast riffs and licks, but what we are doing instead is trying to learn how to play like them, and not how to play like ourselves, and so expressing oneself is shot.


Not true! Learning the music of others is an essential part of the process of finding your own style. Learning others people's music is a great way of broadening your horizons. Nobody creates their own style out of thin air. Instead its more a process of getting thousands of fragments and ideas gotten by listening to and learning existing music, and assmbling them in a new and interesting way.
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Old 10-04-2008, 02:24 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by se012101
Learning the music of others is an essential part of the process of finding your own style. Learning others people's music is a great way of broadening your horizons.


+ 1

besides that, its lots of fun!
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Old 10-04-2008, 07:23 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by se012101
Not true! Learning the music of others is an essential part of the process of finding your own style. Learning others people's music is a great way of broadening your horizons. Nobody creates their own style out of thin air. Instead its more a process of getting thousands of fragments and ideas gotten by listening to and learning existing music, and assmbling them in a new and interesting way.

Didn't you see me contradict myself? Yea, you're right.

My overall point that I was trying to make (just thought of it while I was walking my dog) was that we want to play as fast as our heroes, but some of us have the notion of thinking that by playing faster and faster, just doing runs for endurance, will break down that barrier and help us, like a bodybuilder (and even so, a bodybuilder doesn't even do that, he picks up the weight slowly). In fact, it's doing little or nothing at all, and we got to analyze what is wrong by playing slowly.

This happens in exercises, and also in learning other pieces.

Last edited by SilverDark : 10-04-2008 at 07:58 AM.
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Old 10-04-2008, 09:36 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by se012101
Not true! Learning the music of others is an essential part of the process of finding your own style. Learning others people's music is a great way of broadening your horizons. Nobody creates their own style out of thin air. Instead its more a process of getting thousands of fragments and ideas gotten by listening to and learning existing music, and assmbling them in a new and interesting way.


Yeah, I nowadays I can almost always pinpoint where my pieces come from and which influences there are there. It doesn't mean I don't have my own style. I remember the first thing I ever composed was basically the intro to New Born by Muse with a few wrong notes here and there. Funnily enough, New Born was what I was trying to learn at the time.
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Old 10-04-2008, 12:17 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarMunky
Thats not to say you shouldn't focus on technique, or even speed.... but there is no reason to not work on it in a musical context..... assuming your goals are to play music on your musical instrument.

Sorry yeah, that's exactly what I meant. I should've pointed out that guitarists pursuing speed should focus on speed building exercises in a musical context. Non of that chromatic stuff like 5-6-7-8 on all strings.

That first post of mine was lacking the famous "more haste, less speed" quote. Hmm, funny how that applies to "shred" too.
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Old 10-04-2008, 12:28 PM   #52
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^ it's "more speed, less haste". More result, less effort and stress.
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Old 10-04-2008, 12:34 PM   #53
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Lol! I think I must hold the UG record for "Most posts misinterpreted" and "User most misinterpreted"
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Old 10-04-2008, 12:41 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freepower
^ it's "more speed, less haste". More result, less effort and stress.


Umm...sorry FP but no, the saying is indeed "More haste, less speed" and it should stay that way, 'Haste' being concentrated effort in the right areas and 'speed' being rushing ahead without thought.
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Old 10-04-2008, 12:41 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freepower
Yeah, I nowadays I can almost always pinpoint where my pieces come from and which influences there are there. It doesn't mean I don't have my own style. I remember the first thing I ever composed was basically the intro to New Born by Muse with a few wrong notes here and there. Funnily enough, New Born was what I was trying to learn at the time.


Its always interesting to me to listen to what my improvising sounds like right after I've learned a difficult song (like something that takes more than a couple of weeks of working on it hard). Usually there's a noticeable mutation. To me that's good because it means that as well as improving my chops learning the song, I incorporated something new into the repetoire, the stuff I can actually use to make my own stuff.

To Silverdark - about the wanting to play fast like our heroes thing. There is nothing wrong with that. If you like a certain type of music - just like I do - that requires fast playing, then absolutely you have to work on your speed some. My point is more that as you are working on this, you also need to be working on the more creative aspects. As opposed to putting almost all the effort into the speed and waiting until you've reached a certain level before trying to do something with it.
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Old 10-04-2008, 01:38 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z4twenny
this is so true it almost boggles the mind. the most basic fact is: your hands will move faster when they're ready to

also i agree 100% with what erc said.


I posted that after reading another thread about sweeping. The kid was asking
if he should sweep two notes per tick instead of 1 because he reached the top
speed his metronome would go. What's wrong with this picture!?

Assuming everyone wants to be a good player, it's asking the wrong questions and
looking for the answers in the wrong places.

There's nothing wrong with learning the physical mechanics of playing. It's also a
physical activity and quite necessary. But, if you don't spend a little bit of time
learning the basics of your chosen activity, you have willfully chosen to remain in
ignorance about it and it's simple ignorance that will keep you from any real
progress.

The overarching assumption seems to be the speed and fancy technique tricks have
made someone a good player. So that's all that is focused on to the exclusion of
all else. But what you're seeing is only an end result. Consider this: you can
generally tell a master player by listening to them play a handful of notes at a very
moderate speed. What's going on there?
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Old 10-04-2008, 02:19 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Umm...sorry FP but no, the saying is indeed "More haste, less speed" and it should stay that way, 'Haste' being concentrated effort in the right areas and 'speed' being rushing ahead without thought.


You see, the funny thing is that the I've only ever heard it "more speed" until I googled it, where there seems to be an abundance of "more haste" - although the interesting thing is that "both" sayings mean to progess with more care and less outright velocity.

To me, haste implies being in a hurry -

Quote:
1. Rapidity of action or motion.
2. Overeagerness to act.
3. Rash or headlong action; precipitateness.


Whereas speed doesn't have any similar negative connotations, so regardless of which may be more common on google, I'll stick to my way round.

Anyway, we both mean the same thing.
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Old 10-04-2008, 02:39 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freepower
You see, the funny thing is that the I've only ever heard it "more speed" until I googled it, where there seems to be an abundance of "more haste" - although the interesting thing is that "both" sayings mean to progess with more care and less outright velocity.

To me, haste implies being in a hurry -



Whereas speed doesn't have any similar negative connotations, so regardless of which may be more common on google, I'll stick to my way round.

Anyway, we both mean the same thing.


Well now that I did not know...I never associated haste with anything negative before...well you learn something every day, the important point is that we're on the same page.................as it were........dammit, I'm a walking cliche today
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:10 PM   #59
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i tried the same exercise again today and is basically impossible to keep up
so i might just abandon that exercise and try my luck on other things

i got more questions on a bunch on little things

1.should i play on my fingertips or can i use the finger pads of my fingers?

2.do hammer ons and pull-offs help with left hand speed?

for example i can do pull-offs as well as some hammer on runs faster than i could do it if i picked every note but my left hand speed on hammer ons is not the same as if i was picking note by note

so basically what im asking if i train hammer on speed and pull offs will that help me synch my left hand with my picking hand?


can somebody tell me how fast is this i always describe it as 120bpm but i wish i knew more exactly what im playing is it quarter notes or 8ths or 16ths or what?


here is the exercise i do is on guitar pro format

http://www.yousendit.com/download/b...kQ1JreER2Wmc9PQ

a little lesson or some good links would be appreciated to identify what kind of notes im playing

i got more questions but i forgot most of them at the moment i got to study for a few tests so i post later on
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:33 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefan1988
i tried the same exercise again today and is basically impossible to keep up
so i might just abandon that exercise and try my luck on other things

i got more questions on a bunch on little things

11.should i play on my fingertips or can i use the finger pads of my fingers?

22.do hammer ons and pull-offs help with left hand speed?

for example i can do pull-offs as well as some hammer on runs faster than i could do it if i picked every note but my left hand speed on hammer ons is not the same as if i was picking note by note

3so basically what im asking if i train hammer on speed and pull offs will that help me synch my left hand with my picking hand?

4
can somebody tell me how fast is this i always describe it as 120bpm but i wish i knew more exactly what im playing is it quarter notes or 8ths or 16ths or what?


here is the exercise i do is on guitar pro format

http://www.yousendit.com/download/b...kQ1JreER2Wmc9PQ

a little lesson or some good links would be appreciated to identify what kind of notes im playing

i got more questions but i forgot most of them at the moment i got to study for a few tests so i post later on

1. Tips.
2. Yes and no--for a while, making sure to cleanly hammer on and pull off will definitely be slower. Eventually however, it won't really hurt your speed at all--after a while, how fast you can pick will limit speed more than the left hand. Overall though, it will strengthen your left hand and build it's dexterity, and gives more dynamic options, so it's good to work on.
3. Yes and no--it will improve your left hands precision, which will make syncing them easier, but to truly sync your hands together you definitely need to pick each note.
4. 16th notes at 120 Beats per minute. 8 notes per second.
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