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Old 10-05-2012, 11:02 AM   #11581
BenRaah
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:07 PM   #11582
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I'm still failing to see why so much hate for Porcelain Heart? Is it the guitar work? The lyrics? The combination?

I like the darker electric riff and love the acoustic parts.

I'm just curious as to what it is about the song you guys don't like?

As for TGC I guess I don't see what's so bad about that one either?
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:54 PM   #11583
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Look beyond the aesthetics or the surface that is the guitar work or vocals or lyrics. The songwriting is just a goddamn trainwreck. None of it really makes sense slapped together as it is, with literally no transitions to speak of and/or simply awful transitions.

Atmospherically it's fine. Guitar work is fine. Individually, the sections are fine [if a bit inoffensive* or cliche at times]. The ideas and songwriting just make literally no sense constructed as they are. In essence, Mike just couldn't write a good song to save his life**. This, as a matter of fact is the problem with [almost] all Opeth.

*here this means it doesnt really stand out or do anything beyond what's expected of it, it's standard, etc. That is how I often use this term.
**This applies mostly to everything he's done, but especially to GR, Watershed, and the awful Heritage. But the songwriting problems are present on basically every album, even the ones where the songwriting actually is mostly good (MAYH and Still Life, BWP to an extent, mainly due to Bleak and Drapery).
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:34 PM   #11584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning_Angel
Look beyond the aesthetics or the surface that is the guitar work or vocals or lyrics. The songwriting is just a goddamn trainwreck. None of it really makes sense slapped together as it is, with literally no transitions to speak of and/or simply awful transitions.

Atmospherically it's fine. Guitar work is fine. Individually, the sections are fine [if a bit inoffensive* or cliche at times]. The ideas and songwriting just make literally no sense constructed as they are. In essence, Mike just couldn't write a good song to save his life**. This, as a matter of fact is the problem with [almost] all Opeth.

*here this means it doesnt really stand out or do anything beyond what's expected of it, it's standard, etc. That is how I often use this term.
**This applies mostly to everything he's done, but especially to GR, Watershed, and the awful Heritage. But the songwriting problems are present on basically every album, even the ones where the songwriting actually is mostly good (MAYH and Still Life, BWP to an extent, mainly due to Bleak and Drapery).

Ok, I got ya.

But that seems to go for lots of Opeth songs, even the good ones. I guess it's just to the degree with which one has a limits for
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:15 PM   #11585
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Exactly why many on this forum, after listening too much to Opeth, realized the pervasive flaws.

If you care as much about songwriting (I'm not gonna go all pretentious beyond that) as many here do/have started to, Opeth becomes nigh unlistenable.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:38 PM   #11586
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One thing that perturbs me to no end is that Mike thought the transition at ~2:30 of heavy riff to acoustic bit was fine with a spastic full set fill from Axe.

I mean, what? I'm re-listening to this to try and pinpoint all of the problems, and holy shit. That fade-in lead after the solo vocal track makes me want to shove an ice pick in my forehead, not to mention the sudden break from the big build-up to a solo clean guitar.

Ugh.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:26 PM   #11587
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Alright, so we are all on the same page. I was always told that was there "charm" if you will.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:50 PM   #11588
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My perspective on the "awkward transitions" is this:

better to have unexpected transitions that don't make sense 100% of the time, rather than have totally predictable, generic, run-of-the-mill transitions to every riff in every song.
You know those songs that you hear and 30 seconds in your thinkin' "I know how this one goes, I don't even need to listen to the rest of this."

Opeth is like, the exact opposite of that.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:01 PM   #11589
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitgrinder
My perspective on the "awkward transitions" is this:

better to have unexpected transitions that don't make sense 100% of the time, rather than have totally predictable, generic, run-of-the-mill transitions to every riff in every song.
You know those songs that you hear and 30 seconds in your thinkin' "I know how this one goes, I don't even need to listen to the rest of this."

Opeth is like, the exact opposite of that.


So having nonsense transitions well over half of the time is okay? There are ways to play with subtleties (drum dynamics, passing notes, etc) and have unexpected transitions without just piling everything together like a riff mish mash.

I would prefer solidly constructed music over the nightmare that is Opeth 2005 onward. It's just grating to people that understand (or pretend to, i.e. me) how song flow and structure should work, when they miss perfectly awesome transitions to go and play in an acoustic daisy patch for the next eleven minutes.
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cuz ppl hate how power metal they are cuz they think its "gay" or w.e, which is immature and dirogitory
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:18 PM   #11590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaytanic1993
So having nonsense transitions well over half of the time is okay? There are ways to play with subtleties (drum dynamics, passing notes, etc) and have unexpected transitions without just piling everything together like a riff mish mash.

I would prefer solidly constructed music over the nightmare that is Opeth 2005 onward. It's just grating to people that understand (or pretend to, i.e. me) how song flow and structure should work, when they miss perfectly awesome transitions to go and play in an acoustic daisy patch for the next eleven minutes.

spot on

One Opeth song that is actually decently constructed, albeit rather cliche, is To Bid You Farewell. The only thing that glaringly sticks out is the random 3 second acoustic break then drum fill before the final electric riff.

I don't care how much I shouldn't like Morningrise, I still do.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:44 AM   #11591
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^ That's how I feel about Orchid and Morningrise in general. No matter how much I shouldnt like them, I still have soft spot here or there.
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Originally Posted by Slaytanic1993
So having nonsense transitions well over half of the time is okay? There are ways to play with subtleties (drum dynamics, passing notes, etc) and have unexpected transitions without just piling everything together like a riff mish mash.

I would prefer solidly constructed music over the nightmare that is Opeth 2005 onward. It's just grating to people that understand (or pretend to, i.e. me) how song flow and structure should work, when they miss perfectly awesome transitions to go and play in an acoustic daisy patch for the next eleven minutes.



And Bleak and Drapery Falls are actually mostly well written pieces of music. As I recall, White Cluster and a few others on Still Life are as well.

Beyond that it's mostly his short stuff that's best - Isolation Years, Ending Credits, Coil, parts of Burden [I actually like this song - call it a guilty pleasure], Benighted [even though the main theme is a blatant ripoff], For Absent Friends, Hours of Wealth, Epilogue...
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:22 AM   #11592
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The most awkward transition Opeth ever made was fat Mikael to skinny Mikeal after they signed to Roadrunner. It was almost over night.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:18 PM   #11593
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Nah. He wasnt really fat at all when they were still on the label that put out BWP and such.

And also, The Moor might be the best song Mike ever wrote - no real glaringly awful transitions, all pretty much good ideas, etc.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:36 PM   #11594
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The only qualm I have with that song is the intro. It's just far too long with no variation, for me.

Otherwise, that song, along with SPD and White Cluster, is killer and has good (well, SPD for the first half) composition behind it.

EDIt: fuck it man, that 'darkness reared its head' bit before the solo in Serenity is probably the best climax in an Opeth song. Perfect build up to those tritones. Then it starts to fall apart a bit
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cuz ppl hate how power metal they are cuz they think its "gay" or w.e, which is immature and dirogitory

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Old 10-06-2012, 02:43 PM   #11595
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I think Windowpane will always be my favourite Opeth song.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:44 PM   #11596
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Originally Posted by guitgrinder
My perspective on the "awkward transitions" is this:

better to have unexpected transitions that don't make sense 100% of the time, rather than have totally predictable, generic, run-of-the-mill transitions to every riff in every song.
You know those songs that you hear and 30 seconds in your thinkin' "I know how this one goes, I don't even need to listen to the rest of this."

Opeth is like, the exact opposite of that.
x2.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:48 PM   #11597
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Still Life is the strongest Opeth release.
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I think Windowpane will always be my favourite Opeth song.

It has probably my favorite Opeth solo.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:58 PM   #11598
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The Drapery Falls is very well put together, really good one to play around with on bass cause there's a lot of room for improvisation within well-defined riffs. Only jarring bit is intentionally so and I think it's required to keep the song moving
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:10 PM   #11599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaytanic1993
So having nonsense transitions well over half of the time is okay? There are ways to play with subtleties (drum dynamics, passing notes, etc) and have unexpected transitions without just piling everything together like a riff mish mash.

I would prefer solidly constructed music over the nightmare that is Opeth 2005 onward. It's just grating to people that understand (or pretend to, i.e. me) how song flow and structure should work, when they miss perfectly awesome transitions to go and play in an acoustic daisy patch for the next eleven minutes.

The (small) problem I have with Opeth's transitions in the newer music is the shift in atmosphere. Still Life and Blackwater Park especially obviously had similar jumps between styles, but because the atmosphere of it remained it made it better. Obviously from a technical perspective they were better than the past three albums, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning_Angel
^ That's how I feel about Orchid and Morningrise in general. No matter how much I shouldnt like them, I still have soft spot here or there.

Why shouldn't you like them? I mean, I don't and never really have, save for some of Advent.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:27 PM   #11600
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Mike should have made Heritage a solo album.
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