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Old 10-05-2012, 07:18 PM   #11581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaytanic1993
So having nonsense transitions well over half of the time is okay? There are ways to play with subtleties (drum dynamics, passing notes, etc) and have unexpected transitions without just piling everything together like a riff mish mash.

I would prefer solidly constructed music over the nightmare that is Opeth 2005 onward. It's just grating to people that understand (or pretend to, i.e. me) how song flow and structure should work, when they miss perfectly awesome transitions to go and play in an acoustic daisy patch for the next eleven minutes.

spot on

One Opeth song that is actually decently constructed, albeit rather cliche, is To Bid You Farewell. The only thing that glaringly sticks out is the random 3 second acoustic break then drum fill before the final electric riff.

I don't care how much I shouldn't like Morningrise, I still do.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:44 AM   #11582
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^ That's how I feel about Orchid and Morningrise in general. No matter how much I shouldnt like them, I still have soft spot here or there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaytanic1993
So having nonsense transitions well over half of the time is okay? There are ways to play with subtleties (drum dynamics, passing notes, etc) and have unexpected transitions without just piling everything together like a riff mish mash.

I would prefer solidly constructed music over the nightmare that is Opeth 2005 onward. It's just grating to people that understand (or pretend to, i.e. me) how song flow and structure should work, when they miss perfectly awesome transitions to go and play in an acoustic daisy patch for the next eleven minutes.



And Bleak and Drapery Falls are actually mostly well written pieces of music. As I recall, White Cluster and a few others on Still Life are as well.

Beyond that it's mostly his short stuff that's best - Isolation Years, Ending Credits, Coil, parts of Burden [I actually like this song - call it a guilty pleasure], Benighted [even though the main theme is a blatant ripoff], For Absent Friends, Hours of Wealth, Epilogue...
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:22 AM   #11583
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The most awkward transition Opeth ever made was fat Mikael to skinny Mikeal after they signed to Roadrunner. It was almost over night.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:18 PM   #11584
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Nah. He wasnt really fat at all when they were still on the label that put out BWP and such.

And also, The Moor might be the best song Mike ever wrote - no real glaringly awful transitions, all pretty much good ideas, etc.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:36 PM   #11585
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The only qualm I have with that song is the intro. It's just far too long with no variation, for me.

Otherwise, that song, along with SPD and White Cluster, is killer and has good (well, SPD for the first half) composition behind it.

EDIt: fuck it man, that 'darkness reared its head' bit before the solo in Serenity is probably the best climax in an Opeth song. Perfect build up to those tritones. Then it starts to fall apart a bit
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cuz ppl hate how power metal they are cuz they think its "gay" or w.e, which is immature and dirogitory

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Old 10-06-2012, 02:43 PM   #11586
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I think Windowpane will always be my favourite Opeth song.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:44 PM   #11587
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Originally Posted by guitgrinder
My perspective on the "awkward transitions" is this:

better to have unexpected transitions that don't make sense 100% of the time, rather than have totally predictable, generic, run-of-the-mill transitions to every riff in every song.
You know those songs that you hear and 30 seconds in your thinkin' "I know how this one goes, I don't even need to listen to the rest of this."

Opeth is like, the exact opposite of that.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:48 PM   #11588
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Still Life is the strongest Opeth release.
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I think Windowpane will always be my favourite Opeth song.

It has probably my favorite Opeth solo.
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:58 PM   #11589
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The Drapery Falls is very well put together, really good one to play around with on bass cause there's a lot of room for improvisation within well-defined riffs. Only jarring bit is intentionally so and I think it's required to keep the song moving
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:10 PM   #11590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaytanic1993
So having nonsense transitions well over half of the time is okay? There are ways to play with subtleties (drum dynamics, passing notes, etc) and have unexpected transitions without just piling everything together like a riff mish mash.

I would prefer solidly constructed music over the nightmare that is Opeth 2005 onward. It's just grating to people that understand (or pretend to, i.e. me) how song flow and structure should work, when they miss perfectly awesome transitions to go and play in an acoustic daisy patch for the next eleven minutes.

The (small) problem I have with Opeth's transitions in the newer music is the shift in atmosphere. Still Life and Blackwater Park especially obviously had similar jumps between styles, but because the atmosphere of it remained it made it better. Obviously from a technical perspective they were better than the past three albums, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burning_Angel
^ That's how I feel about Orchid and Morningrise in general. No matter how much I shouldnt like them, I still have soft spot here or there.

Why shouldn't you like them? I mean, I don't and never really have, save for some of Advent.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:27 PM   #11591
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Mike should have made Heritage a solo album.
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:06 PM   #11592
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaytanic1993
The only qualm I have with that song is the intro. It's just far too long with no variation, for me.

Otherwise, that song, along with SPD and White Cluster, is killer and has good (well, SPD for the first half) composition behind it.

EDIt: fuck it man, that 'darkness reared its head' bit before the solo in Serenity is probably the best climax in an Opeth song. Perfect build up to those tritones. Then it starts to fall apart a bit



Y'know, with all your "qualms" in Opeth's music, one could easily think that you're not a fan of their music at all. You never point out good transitions, or what makes you like their music, or what made you a fan of them in the 1st place. Even in this post, you counter a positive thing you said about the song with a negative comment.

The reason I bring this all up is, why bother? If you don't like their transitions/songwriting in general, why spend the time tearing it apart? I know the thread doesn't have to be a complete fellatio-fest, it's just that you seem more interested in tearing down the music more than anything else. I mean, whatever suits ya, just seems like a waste.

I don't ever really say this, but since you seem to know all the improvements Opeth can make with their music...

let's hear what you got!
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:31 PM   #11593
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitgrinder
Y'know, with all your "qualms" in Opeth's music, one could easily think that you're not a fan of their music at all. You never point out good transitions, or what makes you like their music, or what made you a fan of them in the 1st place. Even in this post, you counter a positive thing you said about the song with a negative comment.

The reason I bring this all up is, why bother? If you don't like their transitions/songwriting in general, why spend the time tearing it apart? I know the thread doesn't have to be a complete fellatio-fest, it's just that you seem more interested in tearing down the music more than anything else. I mean, whatever suits ya, just seems like a waste.

I don't ever really say this, but since you seem to know all the improvements Opeth can make with their music...

let's hear what you got!


I'm entirely too invested in Opeth to just sit back and listen to the music idly, so I naturally comment. The fellatio has gone on for quite a few years - even from me - so seeing some level of criticism is super fresh. If I were Mike, I would want 100% of any and all criticisms (constructive) that I could get because the fanboys would be overwhelming and entirely un-helpful as a songwriter.

I got into them because I had very little interest in metal anymore and I heard Damnation, thinking it was some smooth prock band, so I checked out the rest of their catalog (plus, Steven Wilson was credited on that record so I naturally had to magnetize to it). I'm saying that their modern stuff has far too many misses to make up for the hits, which the older stuff had in spades. The problems I have are because the transitional issues are (like ctfod said) huge shifts in atmosphere, where Orchid->DD's never really had the same level of issues.

I'm not claiming to know how to fix the problem, only that there is a problem. That's the first step to critical analysis, but certainly not the last. I'll never profess to knowing how a band should write their music, only how I react to it. Besides, that is a very flawed argument; I could tell you how bad it looks when a building falls apart at its foundation, but I'm not an architect so asking me to build the building is just a kneejerk 'nuh-uh!'.
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cuz ppl hate how power metal they are cuz they think its "gay" or w.e, which is immature and dirogitory

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Old 10-06-2012, 04:42 PM   #11594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctfod
Why shouldn't you like them? I mean, I don't and never really have, save for some of Advent.

The songwriting is glaringly cut and paste and quite simply terrible.

But the riffs and the dual guitars and stuff are so good at times that sometimes it's worth hearing once in a while.
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Old 10-21-2012, 02:48 PM   #11595
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Jumpin' into the conversation here.. been an Opeth fan since Deliverance/Damnation, they were the first extreme metal band I heard and I picked up Blackwater Park when I was 13 because I thought the cover looked badass. Pretty much scared the shit out of me lol as my favourite band at the time was Nirvana.

Seems like everyone also hates on new Opeth releases, I've been around for the big ones and I was a regular member of Opeth's official forum before it was closed down for being troll central. Ghost Reveries in particular got a lot of hate and now its known as one of their best by many.

I have been losing touch with the band since then however, Heritage gave me the opportunity to get excited about them but I'm not crazy about it. Probably better then most Watershed.. which I can see exactly where you guys come from, loved sections of songs and hated others. Hessian peel was like that. I've really grown tired of the whole slamming of diminshed chords thing, it has the ability to ruin songs.

I liked Devil's Orchard and Slither, I even wondered what Opeth would be like if they abandoned their stubborn ways and structured a majority of their songs that way. I have a feeling they might be more enjoyable.

I concur with the hate for Porcelain Heart although I think the acoustic riff is great, just not any of the rest of the song. The transition after the solo is the worst from Opeth I've heard. It resolves perfectly in the key of A minor, then heeere we go back into the riff in D for no particular reason. Just end the song! But they've had bad transitions even in songs I love, eg. staccato palm muted power chords with death vocals, right after the long acoustic interlude in Master Apprentice.. so I guess its just an unfortunate aspect that comes along with the greatness of Opeth


Anyyyyway I came to this thread caus I'm apart of Opeth tribute show coming up early next year. Our singer normally doesn't scream in our songs, but he's willing to do it for this show so we're going to limit usage, but not disclude it. So far we plan on doing:

The Drapery Falls
Ghost of Perdition
Windowpane
Face of Melinda

and maybe one more song. perhaps porcelain heart?

JK :p

any ideas?
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Old 10-21-2012, 03:53 PM   #11596
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:19 PM   #11597
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^A Fair Judgement.

If you play this please, for the love of christ just cut out the whole terrible outro.

It's a decent enough doomy riff but it comes out of fucking nowhere and makes no goddamn sense in the context of the song.
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Old 10-21-2012, 05:28 PM   #11598
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Bleak, perhaps?
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:24 PM   #11599
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Old 10-22-2012, 04:16 AM   #11600
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