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Old 11-11-2008, 09:37 PM   #21
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Good lesson.

I think it's worth explaining the difference between "Aeolian" and regular "Minor". A lot of people think that playing Aeolian is the same thing as playing regular minor. I know I thought the same thing.

Good stuff though. It's good that you've included a lot of examples.

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Old 11-11-2008, 09:55 PM   #22
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^ What do you define as the difference?

In classical terminology "Regular" minor, can reffer to Harmonic Minor.

Or Aeolian rarley use's non-diatonic chords, vii0, V ect.

Natural Minor often uses non-diatonics, especially the vii0 and V (dom)
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Old 11-11-2008, 09:59 PM   #23
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I wasn't just talking about the scale, I'm talking about the music as a whole. In "regular" minor, there is a major dominant chord to resolve stronly to the tonic (almost always). If a song has no major dominant, I'd call it aeolian. So I guess what I'm saying is that regular minor uses harmonic minor and natural minor scales together, whether for just harmony, or melody also. Aeolian has no major 7th. I hope I explained that correctly.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:11 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvanise69
^ What do you define as the difference?


Functional harmony. The difference between tonal and modal music in general.
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Old 11-11-2008, 10:22 PM   #25
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^^ Thats what I meant, In Aeolian, generally no diatonic chords are used, instead of a G7 - C-7 often there is no V - I resolution, only a v - i i.e G-7 - C-7.

Natural Minor the V is made dominant to increase resolution to the i ect.

Also, in regurds to the lesson, I would say, nice post, a few things. Would the name Mixolydian b6 be better seen as Aeolian Dominant?

Considering its a mode of scale with a Major 3rd and a Minor 7 (which makes a mode Dominant).

Also, I assume this was intentional, but for the "advanced modes" you didnt include the formula.

Not picking, I am just trying to provide some improvments.

I like the analegy of modes to colours.

Also, what did you mean by this?

Overture 1928; At 2:22 (see video link below) He plays in my opinion a super tasty solo. The general rule is to start on the 2nd degree for Dorian which in this song would be F#, but he starts on the D#. This note gives character to the Dorian mode, because if it was a D it would be F# Aeolian. Starting on the D# and moving up to the F# creates that typical "Dorian Tension".
So theoretically, this isn't Dorian, but because of the way he plays with the listenerís ear (with the D# to the F#), it has a Dorian sound (which is a perfect example of "bending the rules").

Yep, second degree of the major scale for dorian. Im assuming the piece is in E Major, he starts on the Major 7th which is non-diatonic to dorian.

"This note gives character to the Dorian mode, because if it was a D it would be F# Aeolian. Starting on the D# and moving up to the F# creates that typical "Dorian Tension". "

Especially this bit I think needs more explaining. You've already said D# is non-diatonic to the dorian key were in, but than your saying moving from D# to F# creates a typical dorian tension.

Anyhow, I just think it needs slightly better explaining.

Last edited by Galvanise69 : 11-12-2008 at 04:32 AM.
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvanise69
^^ Thats what I meant, In Aeolian, generally no diatonic chords are used, instead of a G7 - C-7 often there is no V - I resolution, only a v - i i.e G-7 - C-7.

Natural Minor the V is made dominant to increase resolution to the i ect.

Also, in regurds to the lesson, I would say, nice post, a few things. Would the name Mixolydian b6 be better seen as Aeolian Dominant?

Considering its a mode of scale with a Major 3rd and a Minor 7 (which makes a mode Dominant).

Also, I assume this was intentional, but for the "advanced modes" you didnt include the formula.

Not picking, I am just trying to provide some improvments.

I like the analegy of modes to colours.

Also, what did you mean by this?

Overture 1928; At 2:22 (see video link below) He plays in my opinion a super tasty solo. The general rule is to start on the 2nd degree for Dorian which in this song would be F#, but he starts on the D#. This note gives character to the Dorian mode, because if it was a D it would be F# Aeolian. Starting on the D# and moving up to the F# creates that typical "Dorian Tension".
So theoretically, this isn't Dorian, but because of the way he plays with the listenerís ear (with the D# to the F#), it has a Dorian sound (which is a perfect example of "bending the rules").

Yep, second degree of the major scale for dorian. Im assuming the piece is in E Major, he starts on the Major 7th which is non-diatonic to dorian.

"This note gives character to the Dorian mode, because if it was a D it would be F# Aeolian. Starting on the D# and moving up to the F# creates that typical "Dorian Tension". "

Especially this bit I think needs more explaining. You've already said D# is non-diatonic to the dorian key were in, but than your saying moving from D# to F# creates a typical dorian tension.

Anyhow, I just think it needs slightly better explaining.


Yes Yes tyvm for the Crit.

On the dominant 7th options; I was thinking about them what would be best. Should I base the formula's of those on the Cmajor scale?

And on the petrucci thing, I know it's hard to explain cause the solo is simple, but it's effect is bending rules, and I could analyze every degree as well as how they give the sound over each chord, but then it would be a page long lol.

I will give it another look though.
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:06 AM   #27
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The formula's should'nt be based on any scale.

The melodic pattern created using those formula's will be the same in any key, so like so:

Modes of the Melodic Minor
Melodic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Phrygian Nat 6th: 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Lydian Augmented: 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
Lydian Dominant: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
Aeolian Dominant/Mixolydian b13: 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian Nat 2nd: 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
Super-Locrian: 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

Harmonic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Locrian Nat 6th: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
Ionian Augmented: 1 2 3 4 #5 6 7
Dorian #4: 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
Phyrgian Dominant: 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian #2: 1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7
Ultra-Locrian: 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7

ect.

Sorry, did you mean when describing them to compare them the the modes of the Major Scale?

In that case I would, Melodic Minor (in my view, not that that's right) Melodic Minor is compared to dorian, with a restored Leading Tone, (not that this is the purpose for its creation)

Harmonic Minor is of course Aeolian with the leading-tone resored to restore the V - i to the key.
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:17 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galvanise69
The formula's should'nt be based on any scale.

The melodic pattern created using those formula's will be the same in any key, so like so:

Modes of the Melodic Minor
Melodic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Phrygian Nat 6th: 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Lydian Augmented: 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
Lydian Dominant: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
Aeolian Dominant/Mixolydian b13: 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian Nat 2nd: 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
Super-Locrian: 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

Harmonic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Locrian Nat 6th: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
Ionian Augmented: 1 2 3 4 #5 6 7
Dorian #4: 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
Phyrgian Dominant: 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian #2: 1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7
Ultra-Locrian: 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7

ect.

Sorry, did you mean when describing them to compare them the the modes of the Major Scale?

In that case I would, Melodic Minor (in my view, not that that's right) Melodic Minor is compared to dorian, with a restored Leading Tone, (not that this is the purpose for its creation)

Harmonic Minor is of course Aeolian with the leading-tone resored to restore the V - i to the key.


Yes, but what I mean is those formula's are based on the major scale right? You take the notes of the major scale and apply those changes?

Major scale: r,2,3 etc which is C,D,E
Harmonic minor: r,2,b3 so C,D,Eb
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Old 11-12-2008, 10:59 AM   #29
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If you want to learn about the modes, then stop watching and start reading![/B]

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Old 11-12-2008, 11:34 AM   #30
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Empty vessels make the most noise.


??
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:08 PM   #31
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^It means those that talk a lot, usually don't know what they are talking about. Or something to that effect. All mouth no trousers would imply someone who talks a lot about a particular subject, but doesn't deliver anything of substance.
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:12 PM   #32
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Like everyone talking about modes.
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:14 PM   #33
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...which is why this hasn't been stickied. Some mod's gonna wander on MT now and prove me wrong....bastard.
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:27 PM   #34
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...which is why this hasn't been stickied. Some mod's gonna wander on MT now and prove me wrong....bastard.


I just listed examples of songs which resemble the modes strongly, hearing wise. I seen so many people say; I'm in C major and I Start on a D note and end on a D note, and it still sounds major instead of dorian. I thought if I list songs which distinctively represent a mode's sound, people would understand better, cause I see a mode question every week at least once or twice.

Only thing I talked about is my own view on modes, which I said choose whichever works best for you.
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Old 11-12-2008, 04:00 PM   #35
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While your ideas all work good in theory and paper, the thing I miss biggest in this summary is the practical application of modes. You give us examples to listen to, but that doesn't do it for me. I mean, I have a fine understanding of modes and when to use them but most importantly: When NOT to use them. Modes are not something you can learn overnight or incoorperate into your playing easily. Modes are not something you can put in a ii-V-I progression (or most progressions for that matter) because those progressions aren't modal. Maybe add (a) part(s) on stuff like that.
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:07 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxdarrenxx
Yes, but what I mean is those formula's are based on the major scale right? You take the notes of the major scale and apply those changes?

Major scale: r,2,3 etc which is C,D,E
Harmonic minor: r,2,b3 so C,D,Eb


Yes. All scale/chord formulas are relative to the major scale.

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Old 11-12-2008, 07:12 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by elvenkindje
While your ideas all work good in theory and paper, the thing I miss biggest in this summary is the practical application of modes. You give us examples to listen to, but that doesn't do it for me. I mean, I have a fine understanding of modes and when to use them but most importantly: When NOT to use them. Modes are not something you can learn overnight or incoorperate into your playing easily. Modes are not something you can put in a ii-V-I progression (or most progressions for that matter) because those progressions aren't modal. Maybe add (a) part(s) on stuff like that.


Hmmm yes I understand what you mean. I think the title is a bit misleading. I meant this to be more of a "sound" experience of the modes; Get to know how they sound, as I believe this will equally help in getting the sound of a mode down in a musical idea as in how it actual works with the theoretical side (the notes and the modal progressions)
Understanding the vibe and mood, know what I mean?

Thanks for the advice. If I find the time, I will make a list on chordal progressions and how u can come up with ur own in an easy way by the use of slash chords.
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:19 PM   #38
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Hmmm yes I understand what you mean. I think the title is a bit misleading. I meant this to be more of a "sound" experience of the modes. Get to know how they sound, as I believe this will equally help in getting the sound of a mode down in a musical idea as in how it actual works with the theoretical side (the notes and the modal progressions)

In relation to the sound experience you might want to add the 'Satrianistyle' of practicing modes (or pitch axis practice or w/e you want to call it). In simple, play the low E note and play E ionian over it, after that, play another mode of E over it (I prefer lydian or mixolydian next so you hear the subtle, yet big, differences between the two)

Also, I completely disagree with the following part. Might have taken it too literally but maybe other people will too.
Quote:
help in getting the sound of a mode down in a musical idea

A musical idea is a musical idea. It's something in your head that you want to get out and play. Modes do not help you get out of this and you should not force a mode into an idea. Just let the idea come out, whether it's modal or not.

In short, my view on modes? Learn them, use them to find out how certain tensions sound in relation to eachother, forget modes, remember the tensions. Just shut up about the theorycraft and play what's in your mind know that you're one step closer to being able to.
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Old 11-12-2008, 07:34 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by elvenkindje
In relation to the sound experience you might want to add the 'Satrianistyle' of practicing modes (or pitch axis practice or w/e you want to call it). In simple, play the low E note and play E ionian over it, after that, play another mode of E over it (I prefer lydian or mixolydian next so you hear the subtle, yet big, differences between the two)

Also, I completely disagree with the following part. Might have taken it too literally but maybe other people will too.

A musical idea is a musical idea. It's something in your head that you want to get out and play. Modes do not help you get out of this and you should not force a mode into an idea. Just let the idea come out, whether it's modal or not.

In short, my view on modes? Learn them, use them to find out how certain tensions sound in relation to eachother, forget modes, remember the tensions. Just shut up about the theorycraft and play what's in your mind know that you're one step closer to being able to.


I agree on ur view, cause it's also my view. But know also, that not all people have such a link from head to the instrument. I made this list so people can link the mode to the sound of em as such in the examples. Cause words can't describe the feelings of every mode, simply because everyone will feel it different. So I made a list and if someone comes and clicks a song on the list and are like: Hey I like this sound I wanna play this, they know which mode they have to learn or draw inspiration from in order to get the sound on the instrument. Once they learned that, they can start experimenting with mixing modes, adding "out of scale" notes etc.

You don't need to know the rules in order to "accidently" break em. But if u do you know where to look, and this will save alot of time in getting ur musical ideas down.
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Old 11-12-2008, 08:40 PM   #40
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^Playing Lydian still won't make you sound like Vai though . But I get what you're saying. It's easier to listen to a song and get the idea rather than read about it.
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